Northern Rail Fixed Penalty Notice: Help Please

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  • thegirlintheattic
    thegirlintheattic Posts: 2,761 Forumite
    C_Mababejive wrote: »
    #9 I am in agreement with you. I, like yourself,know nothing of railway law and i also would think it reasonable that if a ticket could not be purchased at my joining station,to get on the train and await the attendance of a ticket person from whom i could purchase a ticket...or failing that,to tender my payment at the arriving station.

    I would think that fair and reasonable and i think any could would think the same.

    If i had been challenged at the arriving station and they were not prepared to sell me a ticket, i would reiterate the above and leave assuming no one was seeking to restrain me.

    Northern Rail, at least on my route, are cracking down on this. It was a well known thing that you get on at stop A without a ticket, get off at stop B before the conductor had managed to walk the length of the train. If revenue protection was waiting at stop B (a main town), you'd say you were just about to buy the ticket and they'd accept it and let you go. 9 times out of 10, people were getting a free journey.
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  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581 Forumite
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    They're cutting it fine with the 6-month limit, but 3-days is 3-days and they could still lay the information on time. It's unlikely, but possible. It's correct that the six months starts from the date of the alleged offence, and ends when the TOC lays the information, therefore you could be looking at a year or so in total, quite legitimately.

    It's an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 to travel, or attempt to travel on a train without buying a ticket, with the intention of avoiding payment. If you believe you are not guilty, you shouldn't pay the notice and request a court hearing instead. I always assumed these notices were like Penalty Fares, whereby if they remain unpaid, the notice is cancelled and procedings under Railway Byelaws are commenced (to court, like this could do). Difference with this is, it's not a Byelaw offence, therefore the burden of proof is far greater for the TOC. I'd say it's extremely unlikely they'd succeed in a Regulation of Railways Act conviction in this case. Are you sure that's what they are alleging?
  • C_Mababejive
    C_Mababejive Posts: 11,654 Forumite
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    If there is no ticket booth at your departure point then what are you to do? Is the expectation that you will have purchased a ticket on line? If someone attempts to tender payment at the destination then clearly,there is no intent to travel without payment. Maybe northern rail need to ensure their stations are correctly manned or at least that there are ticket machines for prepayment.
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  • geordie_taxi
    geordie_taxi Posts: 434 Forumite
    C_Mababejive wrote: »
    Maybe northern rail need to ensure their stations are correctly manned or at least that there are ticket machines for prepayment.

    that costs money and lowers the profit margins of the greedy train company. it is far cheaper to put the responsibility on the passenger and blame them when honest mistakes are made or if they cant for whatever reason get a ticket the passenger is then unfairly victimised.

    northern 'fixed penalty notice' is nothing but a cheap shot of using unlawful legislation to extort monies out of people to maximise profits. the sooner somebody counter this with their own legal proceeding the better but alas that wud cost lots of money for fancy lawyers and the train companies know this.
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  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581 Forumite
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    C_Mababejive wrote: »
    If there is no ticket booth at your departure point then what are you to do? Is the expectation that you will have purchased a ticket on line? If someone attempts to tender payment at the destination then clearly,there is no intent to travel without payment. Maybe northern rail need to ensure their stations are correctly manned or at least that there are ticket machines for prepayment.

    The onus is on the traveller to seek out the Guard in such circumstances, or pay at their destination station. If there's evidence to suggest that the passenger would not have paid their fare at the end of their journey, that's when the TOC's staff can report the facts. Obviously none of us here were present when the OP was dealt with, but I'm assuming Northern thought there were sufficient grounds to suspect that the fare was at risk. Such circumstances, once challenged, might be if the passenger was seen to exit the station after having completed his journey, making no attempt to purchase a ticket, or if the passenger tailgates through a ticket barrier at their destination.
  • geordie_taxi
    geordie_taxi Posts: 434 Forumite
    Stigy wrote: »
    The onus is on the traveller to seek out the Guard in such circumstances, or pay at their destination station.

    so wot happens if its a busy commuter train and u cant get to the guard or hes to busy maybe doing guard things or drinking tea reading his newspaper locked in the back

    and then when u get to ur end station its unbarriered with no ticket facilities and no staff
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  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581 Forumite
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    geordie_taxi wrote: »
    so wot happens if its a busy commuter train and u cant get to the guard or hes to busy maybe doing guard things or drinking tea reading his newspaper locked in the back

    and then when u get to ur end station its unbarriered with no ticket facilities and no staff
    #

    Usually such trains are very short, and the Guard makes it through to check tickets, especially as he knows there's unstaffed stations on his route. If he doesn't, it's often easy enough to approach him. You'll be able to see where he is when you board the train too.

    There's only so much you can do, and if the Guard really can't be seen (which I've never known myself).
  • wealdroam
    wealdroam Posts: 19,181 Forumite
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    geordie_taxi wrote: »
    so wot happens if its a busy commuter train and u cant get to the guard or hes to busy maybe doing guard things or drinking tea reading his newspaper locked in the back

    and then when u get to ur end station its unbarriered with no ticket facilities and no staff
    Geordie_taxi, I am sure that even you can work out the answer to that question.
  • Jeff_Bridges_hair
    Jeff_Bridges_hair Posts: 6,330 Forumite
    Stigy wrote: »
    The onus is on the traveller to seek out the Guard in such circumstances, or pay at their destination station. .


    This is not correct. There is nothing written that states you have to find the guard yourself should there be no ticket issuing facilities at your starting station.
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  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581 Forumite
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    Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »
    This is not correct. There is nothing written that states you have to find the guard yourself should there be no ticket issuing facilities at your starting station.
    I believe "as soon as practicable" is the terminology. This would, in a lot of Northern's territory, by the Guard on the Train. Are there Permit to Travel machines in that neck of the woods too?
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