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PCN - ParkingEye Aire Street, Leeds

AggrievedOfEssex
AggrievedOfEssex Posts: 13
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edited 26 October 2019 at 2:37PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
Hello all. First of all - thanks to everyone who has taken the time to contribute to the sticky posts and to the threads. I have reviewed as much of the info as possible, reading at length across the Newbie post and looking up various posts linked to which I think most relate to my own situation.

Short summary is: the driver went into the above named carpark about 7:30 one morning. It was a one-off trip to Leeds. After a back and forth to the payment machine between one passenger in the vehicle and the driver, it was realised the carpark was no good (tickets being availble something like 6pm-8am and then 8am-6pm. The driver and passenger wanted to leave the car from around 7:30am until 7pm). So left without buying a ticket and parked in another carpark about 5 mins later.

The keeper received a PCN about a week later. Having looked at the info. in the Newbies thread, I think I have around 4 key points on which to 'appeal' the charge. The prime one being that the stated 'entry' and 'exit' times which are listed on the PCN are within a minutes of the BPA CoP minimum 'grace' period. But also some other points that I have seen listed by others which are grounds to contest no contract was entered into (and PE are engaging in sharp practice!).

What I don't understand exactly is:
Is there a significant benefit to refusing to identify the driver if POFA 2012 has been correctly used/referenced?

Should I expect that my initial 'appeal' to ParkingEye will be rejected by default?


If so, should i just use the template given in Newbies #1 without specific reference to grace periods?

If I need to give my specific reason for appealing to PE in my first appeal should i give less detail in this first appeal, so as not to foreworn PE of the points I intend to raise at POPLA appeal stage? Or will it prejudice my appeal to POPLA if I have not raised all points in the first appeal?


Given I had not expectation of receiving the PCN, and the distance from home, I have no photo evidence of things like how visible/understandable the signage was. Is there any point in including GoogleStreetView imagery in my appeal (either first or to POPLA)? Streetview does show small font signs well above head height...

Thanks in advance for any advice, apologies if this has all been covered elsewhere. I promised i have looked!
«13

Comments

  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,155
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    If the NTK has been correctly given and liability can be transferred to the keeper, then there may be no advantage in keeping the driver's identity secret. However, this should always be the start default point.

    Unless there is a specific advantage to naming the driver I wouldn't do it myself. If you decide not to tell the scammers something they are not entitled to know, then you shouldn't reveal it in posts on here, which you have done.

    Parking Lie will reject your initial appeal no matter what you put in it, so why waste energy? Just send the template in blue from the NEWBIES. PoPLA is where this battle will be won or lost.
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  • AggrievedOfEssex
    AggrievedOfEssex Posts: 13
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    edited 26 October 2019 at 2:37PM
    Thanks for the swift comments, makes sense re: the first appeal.
    Fruitcake wrote: »
    you shouldn't reveal it in posts on here, which you have done.


    I did edit a line after the initial post, but deliberately wrote in such a way as to not specify who the driver was. I am the registered keeper. (So I can correct in future) where do you think the text states I am the driver?
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,256
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    Date of parking incident?

    Date of Issue of the first letter (Notice to Keeper) received from PE?

    Does the reverse page of your Notice to Keeper (NtK) contain a paragraph about the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which commences 'You are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 ..... '. And a further paragraph which commences 'You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given ....'?
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

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  • AggrievedOfEssex
    AggrievedOfEssex Posts: 13
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    edited 26 October 2019 at 3:02PM
    Sorry for slow reply - had a death in the family a few days ago.


    Just read up that specific dates should not be given in threads on here. The Date of Issue of the first letter (Notice to Keeper) was 6 days after the 'parking event'.



    Does the reverse page of your Notice to Keeper (NtK) contain a paragraph about the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which commences 'You are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 ..... '. And a further paragraph which commences 'You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given ....'?
    Yes it does.


    I see that 9(2)(a) requires that "The notice must—

    (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;"


    The PCN I have received describes "arrival time" and "departure time" - and "time in carpark". It does not specifically state "period of parking". Does this mean the terms of the Protections of Freedoms Act have not been appropriately followed?
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,256
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    Does this mean the terms of the Protections of Freedoms Act have not been appropriately followed?
    Strictly, yes, but we’ve never seen any appeal/court case pivot on that point. It seems that entry/exit times are deemed good enough. You’d be chasing shadows to use it as your prime point of defence.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]PE signs leave much to be desired. Many judges might find them insufficiently clear to form a contract, read this;
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5972164[/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten of these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra work.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,634
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    edited 18 December 2019 at 2:39AM
    After a back and forth to the payment machine between one passenger in the vehicle and the driver, it was realised the carpark was no good (tickets being availble something like 6pm-8am and then 8am-6pm. The driver and passenger wanted to leave the car from around 7:30am until 7pm). So left without buying a ticket and parked in another carpark about 5 mins later.
    This should win at POPLA, if you can prove that the driver parked elsewhere within minutes of leaving. POPLA like that as it proves no parking contract was accepted on site at the first location. Can you prove the chosen 2nd parking site with a ticket?

    Also, you will need to talk about and show pics of the useless signs at Aire Street, same as in all the other Aire St POPLA appeals you find by searching. We've seen in POPLA Decisions, cases won at Aire St before so start by searching THAT sticky thread POPLA DECISIONS, for the keyword 'Aire' and you will see how these are winnable.
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  • Thanks for the comments so far. I submitted an 'appeal' to Parking Eye on the basis I am the registered keeper. PE have emailled from 'no-reply@parkingeye.net' with an attached letter which is rather confusing. It says:
    "We are writing to advise you that your recent appeal has been referred for further
    information.
    You have stated that you were not the driver of the vehicle at the date and time of the
    breach of the terms and conditions of the car park, but you have not indicated who was.
    You have already been notified that under section 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection
    of Freedoms Act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking
    charge in full. As we do not know the driver’s name or current postal address, if you were
    not the driver at the time, you should tell us the full name and the current postal
    address of the driver.
    You are warned that if, after 29 days from the Date of Issue, the parking charge has not
    been paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we
    have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you, the registered
    keeper. This warning is given to you under paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the
    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable
    conditions under schedule 4 of that Act.
    Please note, if you have made or wish to make an appeal on behalf of the driver, and you
    do not provide the full name and current postal address of the driver, ParkingEye will be
    obliged to deal with the representations made in your name.
    ParkingEye have placed this charge on hold for 28 days to enable you to provide the
    evidence requested. If this information is not provided within 28 days, the appeal may well
    be rejected and a POPLA code provided."




    No direct question is asked in that text, at best I take it that they are asking me to identify the driver. I am happy to deal with this matter as the registered keeper, so is there any point to me replying to them?


    Also - despite them emailling the letter to me - there's no email address for my reply...?! is this just another part of the game on their side?
  • Oh - and my original 'appeal' submission said "I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. [and] There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn."


    So it's not like I have not already made my position clear.
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,432
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    Ignore that and wait patiently for your appeal rejection letter/email and a PoPLA code.

    Another good bit is that the '28 days' will take you well last what might be a couple of busy weeks.
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