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  • FIRST POST
    • od244051
    • By od244051 16th Nov 19, 7:07 PM
    • 144Posts
    • 214Thanks
    od244051
    How to write letter to appeal disciplinary outcome
    • #1
    • 16th Nov 19, 7:07 PM
    How to write letter to appeal disciplinary outcome 16th Nov 19 at 7:07 PM
    This was the thread about dreading phoning in sick the third time https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6061408

    I had my disciplinary 11 days ago and got first written warning - which lasts 12 months. My employer got rid of verbal 6 months warning, about 20 months ago.

    I am not happy as manager didn't discuss into detail the first two sicknesses. Plus the manager that did the disciplinary said in the letter that I refused to go to work. There is a reason why I rejected work. I had laryngitis and struggled to talk. I could have moved from the tills to the shop floor. Problem is customers come up to me asking where's this, do we sell this etc. Have done shop floor work before, many times and you cannot escape customers asking questions. When got laryngitis, you should rest your voice! If I went to work, took a customer to where the product is without talking, customers will think I am rude! Plus I was coughing very very badly and unable to be productive. I was coughing so much, that I threw up on three times.

    The third sickness was caused by my 2nd sickness. As I was low with sickness and diahorrea, I picked up this latest bug easily than if I didn't have S&D. I have not thrown up in 15 years, 3 years before I worked at my current employer. Even when I had gallstones issues, I felt very sick and never threw up. Gallbladder removed and not had any issues since.

    The first sickness was UTI and worsening periods. I thought I was going to need some surgery because of the pains and worsening periods. Fortunately, changing medication and losing weight reduced this. Bad gyne problems are in both sides of my family. A cousin had to have a hysterectomy aged 30 due to worsening problems. I was admitted to hospital for o/n observations and scans the following day.

    Member of a union. Unfortunately, the rep at my work is on holiday for several weeks. Ring the local office on Monday for advice

    Then I got my letter 11 days after my disciplinary. Is this normal? Only got them for conduct issues before. I was on holiday for 4 days after the disciplinary, but I should have got the letter either on the day or first day back. The union will be very interested , in this!

    I have a week to compose the letter, what should I put in the letter as its my first time of appealing an outcome from a disciplinary?
Page 1
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 16th Nov 19, 7:12 PM
    • 7,243 Posts
    • 5,699 Thanks
    ohreally
    • #2
    • 16th Nov 19, 7:12 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Nov 19, 7:12 PM
    What are you appealing, the severity of the sanction, the time its on your record, a failing of the process, what?

    What did your case statement address and were you accompanied by union rep?
    Donít be a canít, be a can.
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 16th Nov 19, 7:52 PM
    • 1,922 Posts
    • 3,334 Thanks
    nicechap
    • #3
    • 16th Nov 19, 7:52 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Nov 19, 7:52 PM
    This was the thread about dreading phoning in sick the third time https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6061408

    I had my disciplinary 11 days ago and got first written warning - which lasts 12 months. My employer got rid of verbal 6 months warning, about 20 months ago.

    I am not happy as manager didn't discuss into detail the first two sicknesses. Plus the manager that did the disciplinary said in the letter that I refused to go to work. There is a reason why I rejected work. I had laryngitis and struggled to talk. I could have moved from the tills to the shop floor. Problem is customers come up to me asking where's this, do we sell this etc. Have done shop floor work before, many times and you cannot escape customers asking questions. When got laryngitis, you should rest your voice! If I went to work, took a customer to where the product is without talking, customers will think I am rude! Plus I was coughing very very badly and unable to be productive. I was coughing so much, that I threw up on three times.

    The third sickness was caused by my 2nd sickness. As I was low with sickness and diahorrea, I picked up this latest bug easily than if I didn't have S&D. I have not thrown up in 15 years, 3 years before I worked at my current employer. Even when I had gallstones issues, I felt very sick and never threw up. Gallbladder removed and not had any issues since.

    The first sickness was UTI and worsening periods. I thought I was going to need some surgery because of the pains and worsening periods. Fortunately, changing medication and losing weight reduced this. Bad gyne problems are in both sides of my family. A cousin had to have a hysterectomy aged 30 due to worsening problems. I was admitted to hospital for o/n observations and scans the following day.

    Member of a union. Unfortunately, the rep at my work is on holiday for several weeks. Ring the local office on Monday for advice

    Then I got my letter 11 days after my disciplinary. Is this normal? Only got them for conduct issues before. I was on holiday for 4 days after the disciplinary, but I should have got the letter either on the day or first day back. The union will be very interested , in this!

    I have a week to compose the letter, what should I put in the letter as its my first time of appealing an outcome from a disciplinary?
    Originally posted by od244051
    Is there anything factually incorrect in the letter? What is the effect of the sanction? A note on your file warning that any/ similar/ more sickness record for next 12 months may lead to dismissal? Do you believe that is wrong/ not fair?

    Definitely get onto your union on Monday, but try to understand what the purpose of the process is - to ensure you can do the job you are employed to do.
    Last edited by nicechap; 16-11-2019 at 7:56 PM.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered youíll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ĎLetís Make it Fair!í tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
    • elsien
    • By elsien 16th Nov 19, 8:00 PM
    • 20,518 Posts
    • 52,390 Thanks
    elsien
    • #4
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:00 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:00 PM
    Stick to what is relevant. The huge amount of personal information about your first illness isn't.

    You need to understand that in some respects the reason for your absence is irrelevant. They are not saying you are faking it. They want people who are able to do the job and aren't going to have ongoing high levels of sickness. That's all.
    Last edited by elsien; 16-11-2019 at 8:03 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • 74jax
    • By 74jax 16th Nov 19, 8:35 PM
    • 5,299 Posts
    • 7,399 Thanks
    74jax
    • #5
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:35 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:35 PM
    This was the thread about dreading phoning in sick the third time https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6061408

    I had my disciplinary 11 days ago and got first written warning - which lasts 12 months.

    I am not happy as manager didn't discuss into detail the first two sicknesses. Plus the manager that did the disciplinary said in the letter that I refused to go to work. There is a reason why I rejected work. I had laryngitis and struggled to talk. .

    Member of a union. Unfortunately, the rep at my work is on holiday for several weeks. Ring the local office on Monday for advice

    Then I got my letter 11 days after my disciplinary. Is this normal? Only got them for conduct issues before. I was on holiday for 4 days after the disciplinary, but I should have got the letter either on the day or first day back. The union will be very interested , in this!

    I have a week to compose the letter, what should I put in the letter as its my first time of appealing an outcome from a disciplinary?
    Originally posted by od244051
    I've cut out a lot of unnecessary info.

    What are you appealing? You say the outcome, do you believe you should not be sanctioned for 3 lots of sickness? Is that your appeal?
    Forty and fabulous, well that's what my cards say....
    • od244051
    • By od244051 16th Nov 19, 8:41 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 214 Thanks
    od244051
    • #6
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:41 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:41 PM
    What are you appealing, the severity of the sanction, the time its on your record, a failing of the process, what?

    What did your case statement address and were you accompanied by union rep?
    Originally posted by ohreally
    I am appealing that the fact I am rarely ill and have been to work when I have struggled with a heavy cold before many times. At least I was able to talk during these times.

    Most of sicknesses I had since I started 12 years ago were from surgery. Another time a colleague rolled a heavy pallet onto my foot. Couldn't put any weight on it - bruised and very swollen. Doctors at A&E were shocked that I broke no bones - they thought min 2 bones would be broken
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 16th Nov 19, 8:47 PM
    • 7,243 Posts
    • 5,699 Thanks
    ohreally
    • #7
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:47 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Nov 19, 8:47 PM
    Ok, still irrelevant information.

    What was your case statement regarding management allegations, did you address all point by point?
    Were you represented at the hearing?

    Watch time as you are against a ticking clock?
    Donít be a canít, be a can.
    • 74jax
    • By 74jax 16th Nov 19, 9:29 PM
    • 5,299 Posts
    • 7,399 Thanks
    74jax
    • #8
    • 16th Nov 19, 9:29 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Nov 19, 9:29 PM
    So how many times have you been off.. Lyringitus, gynecology issues, s and d, a bruised foot and over 4 surgeries (you say most were surgery so I'm guessing more than these 4 times).

    Is this all in 12 years?
    Forty and fabulous, well that's what my cards say....
    • Blatchford
    • By Blatchford 16th Nov 19, 9:50 PM
    • 562 Posts
    • 829 Thanks
    Blatchford
    • #9
    • 16th Nov 19, 9:50 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Nov 19, 9:50 PM
    I am appealing that the fact I am rarely ill and have been to work when I have struggled with a heavy cold before many times. At least I was able to talk during these times.

    Most of sicknesses I had since I started 12 years ago were from surgery. Another time a colleague rolled a heavy pallet onto my foot. Couldn't put any weight on it - bruised and very swollen. Doctors at A&E were shocked that I broke no bones - they thought min 2 bones would be broken
    Originally posted by od244051
    All of that is entirely irrelevant. Bottom line, the only thing that matters is (a) how much time off have you had in relation to this warning and (b) what does your sickness policy say? If you have had too much sickness according to the sickness policy, the warning is fair in law. End of story. As Elsien said, it isn't personal, but it also doesn't matter about history. All that matters is did you take time off work for sickness.
    Last edited by Blatchford; 17-11-2019 at 8:10 AM.
    • od244051
    • By od244051 17th Nov 19, 6:18 AM
    • 144 Posts
    • 214 Thanks
    od244051
    All of that is entirely irrelevant. Bottom line, the only thing that matters is (a) how much time off have you had in relation to this warning and (b) what does your sickness policy say? If toy have had too much sickness according to the sickness policy, the warning is fair in law. End of story. As Elsien said, it isn't personal, but it also doesn't matter about history. All that matters is did you take time off work for sickness.
    Originally posted by Blatchford

    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing?

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP
    Last edited by od244051; 17-11-2019 at 6:24 AM.
    • od244051
    • By od244051 17th Nov 19, 7:35 AM
    • 144 Posts
    • 214 Thanks
    od244051
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter?
    • _shel
    • By _shel 17th Nov 19, 7:56 AM
    • 2,568 Posts
    • 4,787 Thanks
    _shel
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing?

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP
    Originally posted by od244051
    How sick you where isn't relevant. If you were off too much in line with their absence procedure they've done nothing wrong.
    • Blatchford
    • By Blatchford 17th Nov 19, 8:09 AM
    • 562 Posts
    • 829 Thanks
    Blatchford
    You are failing to understand what we (and your employer, I assume) are telling you. I doesn't matter what your sickness was, how often you had been not sick in the past, whether you were really sick or not, or how badly sick you were. Sickness absence policies are commonplace and they operate on only one basis - the fact that you have been off on sick leave. Full stop. Every single other thing is irrelevant.
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me This isn't relevant. It has nothing to do with the reason for the warning. The warning is based purely on the fact that you were sick - not how sick you were. Telling them how bad you were has no impact at all on the outcome.
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years This is also not relevant. The sickness absence policy is based on the sickness that you have now, not the fact that you haven't had sickness before.
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing? This is not relevant. You were sick. Fine. You were absent from work as a result of sickness - that is the reason that you fell into the sickness absence policy.

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP None of that is relevant. You were off sick. That is the only thing that is relevant
    Originally posted by od244051
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter? Because that is also not relevant and because since we didn't send the letter, how would we know why it took eleven days? But it doesn't matter - there is no law that says it must be sent quicker.
    Originally posted by od244051
    I want to try to be very clear here for you. You had an amount of time off sick that would trigger pretty much every sickness absence policy that I have ever come across. The single ten days sickness would have triggered my employers - ours is no more than 8.5 days sickness per year, unless there is a disability. The three periods of sickness would also have triggered the policy with my employers - even three one day sicknesses.

    Once a policy is triggered, and yours clearly has, and it isn't surprising that it has, there is only one possible "defence" - that they have made a mistake and you haven't had that many days off sick. You have had that many days off sick. So the warning is perfectly legal and absolutely normal - you won't find many people who work as employees here who wouldn't also have had a warning after that amount of sick leave.

    So you can appeal as much as you want but you have no grounds for appeal and you will lose. So the union won't be "very interested" in any of this because, I'm afraid, you are wrong and have totally made a storm in a teacup. These policies are intended to do one thing and one thing only. Reduce sickness absence. The answer is very simple. Don't have any more sickness absence. You may not like that. I may not like that. But it is totally and completely legal, and you are just prolonging your pain by appealing - you cannot win.
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 17th Nov 19, 8:24 AM
    • 1,922 Posts
    • 3,334 Thanks
    nicechap
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing?

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP
    Originally posted by od244051
    Why would they need to go into detail? HR are not occupational health or health care professionals. You seem to think that your periods of sickness are more valid than other peopleís periods of sickness - are you implying your colleagues fake their symptoms?

    The facts are youíve had 3 periods of sickness within 12 months, your employer is saying that is unacceptable rate for the future - do you disagree? If so, why? That would be one line arguement to appeal on. There are others but nothing youíve posted amounts to anything that would overturn their decision.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered youíll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ĎLetís Make it Fair!í tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 17th Nov 19, 8:28 AM
    • 1,922 Posts
    • 3,334 Thanks
    nicechap
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter?
    Originally posted by od244051
    How can strangers on the internet possibly know why it took 11 days when we know nothing about you, your employer, the investigation manager or anyone else involved. It could be down to double checking everything to prevent a successful appeal, any one involved might have been off on leave during the process, etc etc. Only your employer can answer. And if thatís the basis of your appeal, Iíd suggest it would be fruitless, even as a grievance, which is what you sound to have.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered youíll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ĎLetís Make it Fair!í tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 17th Nov 19, 10:06 AM
    • 4,643 Posts
    • 4,038 Thanks
    Undervalued
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter?
    Originally posted by od244051
    Possibly because you don't seem to be listening to the answers to your other questions! In any case, as "nicechap" has said, how can we possibly know!

    You have fallen victim (I am sure that is how you see it) to a tight but perfectly lawful sickness policy which the firm are quite entitled to apply even when somebody is genuinely sick.

    If they had reason to believe you were not genuinely sick then they would have taken far stronger action.

    The fact that the doctor (apparently) didn't give you suitable medication for 10 days is not in any way your employer's problem!

    Yes, some employers may be more lax in regards to sickness absence, however they are getting fewer. What you have experienced is certainly common and quite possibly becoming the norm. I can only repeat it is not in any way unlawful and I would think long and hard before "rocking the boat" and appealing unless you can clearly show that they have not followed their own procedures.
    Last edited by Undervalued; 17-11-2019 at 3:28 PM.
    • eamon
    • By eamon 17th Nov 19, 11:37 AM
    • 1,945 Posts
    • 1,418 Thanks
    eamon
    I concur an appeal is pointless as well as a waste of everybodies time.


    The 12 months will fly by and 11+ days have already gone and note that it includes non working days as well. It may well be longer if the clock started the day you returned to work. That could be worth checking on.


    A fair number of MSE posters (me included) have triggered sickness absence procedures during our working lives. It happens and for most of us life continues as before. You have had a bad 12 months health wise the next 12 months will be different and the notice will fall of your record.
    Last edited by eamon; 17-11-2019 at 11:51 AM.
    • sportsarb
    • By sportsarb 17th Nov 19, 12:52 PM
    • 1,042 Posts
    • 741 Thanks
    sportsarb
    Have you been treated any less favourably than other people have?

    Did they misapply any part of the sickness policy?

    I've been through three short term trigger point meetings in the past, got through them just by telling the exhaustive truth, that was relevant to that period of sickness. Was surprised to get through it three times with no warning as I know a lot of my colleagues got warnings of various sorts.

    It doesn't sound, on the face of it, that your employed is behaving unreasonably.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 17th Nov 19, 1:22 PM
    • 6,133 Posts
    • 7,601 Thanks
    theoretica
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me
    Originally posted by od244051

    Going into detail about a sickness absence seems to imply they doubt it is genuine or necessary - I would be more annoyed if they had dredged up the past, questioning it.


    While this feels very personal to you, it might be easiest for you to accept it for what it is - an impersonal and inflexible policy that has you in its grasp. Hopefully you will return to health and not have this poor luck again.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • Blatchford
    • By Blatchford 17th Nov 19, 1:54 PM
    • 562 Posts
    • 829 Thanks
    Blatchford
    H
    I've been through three short term trigger point meetings in the past, got through them just by telling the exhaustive truth, that was relevant to that period of sickness. Was surprised to get through it three times with no warning as I know a lot of my colleagues got warnings of various sorts.
    Originally posted by sportsarb
    Assuming that there is no disability involved, that is quite shocking. Not least because they may as well dump the entire policy as it is worthless. These policies were introduced after tribunal findings that, in basic terms, said that it was an unfair dismissal to dismiss people for sickness unless every employee was treated in the same way and sacked for the same level of sickness. The purpose of these policies is therefore to prove the "level playing field". If even one person is treated differently it makes the entire policy invalid. The only exceptions to that would be where a specific disability related adjustment is made and agreed; or in the case of pregnancy related sickness which must not by law be counted as part of the triggers (but any other sickness would be, regardless of pregnancy).
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