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14 Services - Visitor Parking

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  • moorerh
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    Hi everyone, as you all said it would be, my appeal was rejected. This is what they responded with:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company for the provision of their services? I require their contact details.

    I can confirm that 14 Services operate the site, their contact details can be found online.

    2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?

    We are under no obligation to provide this information at this stage, however details of the landowner for the site in question are a matter of public record and can be obtained by contacting the Land Registry office.

    3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority to both issue parking charges and litigate in your own name.

    Our Client; 14 Services, has a contract with the landowner to operate and enforce the parking control measures for that site. You are not at liberty to have sight of such agreement as there is a clear privity of contract insomuch as the contract between the Operator and the landowner has no bearing on the contract between the Operator and the motorist.


    4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.

    No, the contractual terms make it clear that any driver parking in this area, not in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking, agrees to pay the Operators charge. It is in essence the 'price' that the motorist has agreed to pay for parking outside of the stated terms and conditions of parking.


    5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.

    Loss is not relevant as the claim is not for breach of contract. The contractual terms make it clear that any driver parking in this area, not in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking, agrees to pay the Operators charge. It is in essence the 'price' that the motorist has agreed to pay for parking outside of the stated terms and conditions of parking.

    In layman's terms, the Operator is making an offer to the motorist, whereby the motorist, for example, can either park for free providing that a valid parking permit is displayed, or can park without a valid parking permit, for a charge of £100.00 reduced to £60.00 within 14 days. The charge itself is a core contractual price term and one which is non negotiable after the contract has been entered into.

    In the event that a motorist believes the charge to be extravagant or unreasonable, then they are of course free to move their vehicle, within a reasonable grace period and to park elsewhere. By leaving their vehicle at this location, the motorist, by way of affirmation, has agreed to pay the Operators fixed charge.

    It should also be noted that even if the claim was for breach of contract, the recent case of Beavis -v- Parking Eye UKSC 2015/0116; has made it clear that such charges are legal if they are commercially justifiable, or if the Operator has a legitimate interest in imposing such a charge. As the amount here is similar to that which was allowed by the Supreme Court, then this charge can be deemed both reasonable and recoverable.



    6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.

    Please see response to question 5.

    7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.

    Should you have any concerns in respect of any VAT arrangement which may or may not be in place between our Client and HMRC, we would refer you to HMRC.

    8. Please provide a copy of the signs that purportedly were on site which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion.

    Please find enclosed a copy of the signage available on site. All signage has been vetted directly by the IPC as part of their Approved Operator Scheme (“AOS”). In the event that our Client instructs solicitors in respect of this matter, we would confirm that such solicitors would of course comply with all practice directions prior to any claim being issued.

    Yours sincerely

    Robert Stephens
    PCN Parking Solutions

    Any idea what I should do next?

    Thanks
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,672 Forumite
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    Please find enclosed a copy of the signage available on site.

    Please show us the signs. I'd like to see this 'price term' agreed for parking in a way that is prohibited.

    You will need to change http to hxxp (or similarly break the URL to your link to your pics).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • moorerh
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    I will attach the sign, but the photo they have enclosed is not of a sign they have on my site, it is from somewhere else.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,672 Forumite
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    Ha! Typical misleading rubbish then.

    Can you show us the one they showed you, and by comparison, your own photos of the real signs?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    You are not at liberty to have sight of such agreement as there is a clear privity of contract insomuch as the contract between the Operator and the landowner has no bearing on the contract between the Operator and the motorist.

    They appear to have assumed they now have occupier rights and are offering your girlfriends space to you. Ask what consideration are they offering to a "lawful visitor" since there is none.
  • moorerh
    moorerh Posts: 15 Forumite
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    Hi everyone,

    I will post an in depth message tomorrow but I may need some help on this. My girlfriend is getting really worried as a debt collection letter has arrived on her door, and of course the fee has increased. It is from Ultimate Customer Solutions.

    I had perhaps been lazy and thought it would go away but I need to do something now. Can I have any valid fight if she did outstay their 3 hour window? As ridiculous as it is.
  • Ralph-y
    Ralph-y Posts: 4,563 Forumite
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    hi , may I please ask if you ever read the newbies thread ?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

    Debt collectors have less power than a dandelion :eek:

    they have NO power they ARE toothless they can do NOTHING except huff and puff

    "I had perhaps been lazy and thought it would go away but I need to do something now."

    re read the thread for advice posted earlier ......


    "Can I have any valid fight if she did outstay their 3 hour window? As ridiculous as it is."

    yes

    carry on

    good luck

    Ralph:cool:
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    What does the lease / tenancy agreement say.

    What you've got to get your head around is the question "whose land". If it is space where residents/tenants have ownership/easements then they cannot have a contract with the residents/tenants or their "lawful visitors". They'd be charging you for using a space to which you were entitled as a visitor.

    If it was an area to which there were no rights then a contract may be formed, but more likely it would be trespass.

    So check the wording of the lease / rental agreement.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,672 Forumite
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    Who cares about debt collector letters?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5035663

    Everyone gets them when ignoring a PPC, I've ignored them myself. No-one comes knocking, these 'debt collection' call centres are not bailiffs.

    Ignore the daft threatograms!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • fisherjim
    fisherjim Posts: 6,034 Forumite
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    ....a debt collection letter has arrived on her door, and of course the fee has increased.

    No it hasn't, the debt collector Muppets are trying to bully you into paying plus their scam charge of £60 for the fun of bullying you by way of silly letters that mean nothing!

    But you would have known this had you looked around this forum;)
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