WELCOME!
HOW TO BEAT A PRIVATE PCN: BY APPEAL, COMPLAINT, OR DEFENCE.
PLEASE ONLY START A NEW THREAD IF YOUR QUESTION IS NOT ANSWERED HERE, OR IN OTHER THREADS YOU SEARCH FOR AND FIND FIRST, OR IF THE STAGE YOU ARE AT IS COMPLICATED (e.g. COURT CLAIM STAGE, DO POST AND SHOW US YOUR DRAFT DEFENCE, BUT READ POST #2 BELOW, FIRST).
OR AT POPLA STAGE, DO SHOW US YOUR APPEAL DRAFT (BUT DO READ POST #3 BELOW, FIRST).
BEFORE YOU USE THE FORUM, IF YOU ARE NOT SURE HOW TO USE IT, CLICK HERE
Forum Introduction Guide
AND READ THESE; YOU'LL SOON BE UP TO SPEED AND MAY FIND YOUR ANSWER BY SEARCHING FOR SIMILAR POSTS:
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/faqs/how-do-i-ask-a-question-on-the-forum/
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage
DO NOT USE YOUR OWN REAL NAME AS YOUR USERNAME!! TAKE HEED - READ THIS HELPFUL POST FROM CATFUNT:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5532696
PLEASE FIRSTLY READ OTHER THREADS LIKE YOURS, EITHER ON THE FIRST FEW PAGES OF THIS FORUM, OR BY SEARCHING FOR THE PARKING FIRM'S NAME.
THIS FORUM IS VERY BUSY SO WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE HELP FOR THOSE WHO ARE AT A STAGE THAT NEEDS ASSISTANCE (NOT 'IGNORE THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE! WE FIND THAT MOST POSTERS DO NOT NEED SPECIFIC HELP AT FIRST APPEAL STAGE.
FAQS FIRST. NO THREAD IS NEEDED IF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE:
Q -
''My PCN is from a Council (e.g. bus lane, box junction or parking PENALTY) so does this thread apply?''
A - NO, BUT THEY CAN BE APPEALED. GO TO
'PEPIPOO.COM' COUNCIL TICKETS FORUM INSTEAD.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30
Q -
''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.
A -
NO IT ISN'T. YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS.
FORGET THE DETAIL, MOST CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.
Q -
''Is this info up to date, because this thread was started in 2013?''
A -
YES, IT IS. SEE THE DATE LAST EDITED IN 2018 AS SHOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST.
Q -
''Where else can I go for free advice, how about Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB)?''
A - THE CAB (SADLY) INVARIABLY GIVE TERRIBLE ADVICE ABOUT THESE CHARGES (HAVE EVEN DONE SO OFFICIALLY ON THIS FORUM), SO AVOID!
Q -
''I don't understand any of your acronyms, this is too complicated!''
A - THE USUAL ACRONYMS ARE EXPLAINED LOWER DOWN THIS THREAD, SEPARATELY, IN POST #5. APPEALING IS NOT COMPLICATED, YOUR APPEAL IS ALREADY WRITTEN FOR YOU BELOW FOR YOU TO COPY & PASTE INTO THE PPC's ONLINE APPEAL PAGE.
AS THE FORUM IS TOO BUSY, PLEASE
DON'T COPY THE TEMPLATE INTO A NEW THREAD AND ASK 'DO I SUBMIT THIS?'
YES...!
Q -
''I got a windscreen PCN, I've checked the BPA & IPC lists of AOS members but can't find the company''
A - IF YOU ARE UNSURE, START A THREAD TO DOUBLE CHECK THE COMPANY NAME, BUT IF A PARKING FIRM IS NOT IN EITHER THE BPA OR IPC 'APPROVED OPERATOR' SCHEMES, OR ARE SHOWING AS CURRENTLY BANNED,
DO NOT APPEAL AT ALL. THEY CANNOT GET YOUR ADDRESS AND YOU WILL NEVER HEAR ANY MORE!
Q -
''My PCN says the 'fine' will go up after 14 days, so why are you suggesting I wait before appealing?''
A -
FORGET THE '14 DAYS JITTERS'. THE SO-CALLED 'DISCOUNT' IS A BRIBE NOT TO APPEAL - YOU CANNOT DO BOTH - BUT WE ACHIEVE 100% DISCOUNT IN ALMOST EVERY CASE.
Q -
''My PCN is from an IPC member, should I really not try IAS, and why not?''
A - If it's PCM then give it a go as they seem to enter 'no contests' sometimes, but otherwise, no chance unless you have something ground-shattering like proof there are NO signs up, or if they've said you were the driver/keeper and you are neither (e.g. if you are a non-driving resident and appealed instead of a family member keeper/driver, then it can be fun to expose the PPC to that fact at IAS, proving you can't drive!). Normal appeal facts like 'I was not the driver, no keeper liability' don't cut it with the IAS which is deemed to be a kangaroo court, and losing that stage will make most posters feel worse, and more worried. SO DON'T!
Q -
''My PCN is from UKCPM, or UKCPS, or Millennium (etc.) and it/the signs say they are both BPA & IPC members?''
A - NO, THEY ARE NOT, AND PLEASE NO MORE THREADS ASKING THIS!
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5784929
Q -
''My windscreen notice says it's 'NOT A PCN' from 'myparkingcharge.co.uk' so is it a PCN?''
A - YES AND NO! THIS IS DISCUSSED ON OTHER THREADS - SEARCH THE FORUM FOR '
myparkingcharge.co.uk'
Q -
''My windscreen Notice is a 'PENALTY' from a Railway car park, issued by a private firm (Indigo), what do I do?''
The only thing to do differently with an INDIGO RAILWAY PENALTY (specifically only that type) is to WAIT for the first letter to arrive (as long as it's your own vehicle, not leased/hired) and do not rush to appeal on day 26 like with any other 'parking charge notice'. The reason is, these fake penalties go nowhere, and 'time out' after just 6 months. So at every stage, drag it out, and wait for the first letter before using the template appeal below. Then at POPLA stage - which is now available again for fake 'byelaws Penalties' like this one, don't rush. POPLA codes last 32 days, so appeal as late as possible and get to the six months and/or win at POPLA earlier by copying another
byelaws POPLA appeal (search the forum).
For a summary about Indigo Railway penalties, written by a newbie who did her research (BUT THIS WAS BEFORE POPLA WAS ALLOWED AGAIN FOR THESE CASES) click
here.
Q -
''My vehicle is lease/hired/company car and I'm not the registered keeper. Is the advice different?''
A - YES, PLEASE SEE THE SECTION ABOUT LEASE/HIRE/COMPANY CARS AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST
*
Q -
''I'm in Scotland/NI, so is the advice different?''
A - IF THE EVENT TOOK PLACE IN SCOTLAND OR NI, WE SUGGEST YOU DO (ALWAYS!) COMPLAIN TO STORE MANAGEMENT IF YOUR PCN IS FROM A RETAIL PARK, BUT
DO NOT APPEAL, UNLESS YOUR CAR IS A COMPANY/HIRE/LEASED VEHICLE, IN WHICH CASE, APPEAL AS HIRER/LESSEE (SEE
* AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST).
IN SCOTLAND/NI, CERTAINLY COMPLAIN TO THE RETAILERS, BUT IGNORE THE PARKING FIRM UNLESS YOU GET A CLAIM.
IN SCOTLAND THIS IS EXCEEDINGLY RARE, AND DEFENDABLE BY A KEEPER, WHO CURRENTLY HAS A FAR MORE PROTECTED POSITION IN LAW THAN AN ADMITTED DRIVER.
WHEN IGNORING IN SCOTLAND/NI,
KEEP ALL LETTERS. DO NOT THROW THEM AWAY, FOR 5 YEARS.
Q -
''I am getting debt collector letters! They're really scary, the 'fine' has gone up, what do I do?''
A - NOTHING! Unless this is the
VERY FIRST letter (England/Wales) in which case, appeal as if it was the 'Notice to Keeper'. DO
NOT RING THE DEBT COLLECTOR - DON'T TAKE THE BAIT!
See post #4 below, please
NO NEW THREADS RE 'IGNORING THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE.
Q -
''I have a (non-debt collector) Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC), or a Court Claim, or a CCJ that I have just discovered - is it too late to beat this - should I now pay?''
A - IT IS
NOT TOO LATE. WE
WIN 99% OF WELL-DEFENDED COURT CLAIMS! CERTAINLY DON'T RUSH TO PAY OFF A CCJ, WHICH OFTEN DOES
NOT REMOVE IT. THESE CAN BE BEATEN. SEE POST #2.
ALL CASES - COMPLAIN FIRST, ESPECIALLY OVER A RETAIL, HOTEL, OR HOSPITAL CAR PARK:
Always complain to the Retailer very quickly and assertively,
WITH A RECEIPT IF POSSIBLE:
Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled! <<< CLICK
See how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner. VERY EFFECTIVE AND DAMAGES THE PPC!
ALSO PLEASE COMPLAIN TO YOUR MP AND TO TRADING STANDARDS; AS SUGGESTED BY 'THE DEEP':
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787877
Q -
''Why isn't this sort of rip-off scam illegal? I thought these were unenforceable.''
A - Private charges are based on contract law and allege either that the driver breached a contractual term (e.g. a promise not to overstay a 2 hour free period) or accepted an offer to park for a large fee (e.g. 'by parking here without a permit, you agree to pay £100 per day'). Such contracts can be enforceable in the county court, but are defendable (see post #2 all about small claim defences).
Charges are not 'illegal' but this cowboy industry is skating on thin ice in 2018. These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill
''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.
These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.
****************************
Appealing a private PCN (England & Wales ONLY)
Windscreen ticket from a BPA member? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!!
If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal, and not an Indigo Railway 'penalty' - see Q&A above) wait
3 weeks and in that time, you MUST check the firm is an
AOS member with the BPA or IPC (GOOGLE & CHECK THEIR LISTS).
In the case of
CURRENT (NON-DVLA-BANNED) BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (
BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY,
appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the
KEEPER, not driver, using the ''one size fits all'' blue appeal template below.
Q -
''But I want to appeal now! Why wait till day 26 before appealing a BPA member windscreen PCN?''
A - To tie them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a
Notice to Keeper (NTK). Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NTK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA!
Don't forget this tactic, and use it at POPLA stage: having appealed on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received in the following weeks. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a 'NTK'. You
must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NTK at all in that time, and you will win.
IPC members are different:
In the case of CURRENT
IPC AOS MEMBERS ONLY, we now advise to WAIT for a Notice to Keeper to arrive and then challenge once online or by email, as the
KEEPER, not driver, using the template appeal for IPC members, as shown below.
Q -
''Why wait for the 'NTK' to arrive a month later, after finding an IPC member windscreen PCN?''
A: Because there has been shown to be no appeal worth trying really, you will get a rejection anyway, so you may as well leave it and see if they issue a NTK and let them apply to the DVLA (unless yours is a company or lease car of course, in which case you MUST appeal at windscreen PCN stage as stated at the end of this thread). Also, letting an IPC member get the data from the DVLA places obligations upon the PPC in the processing of that data which can have data protection implications for them if they misuse it (for example if they try to 'sell' the parking charge to a third party like MIL Collections).
Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with
no mention of any windscreen ticket):
A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a letter from a debt collector - it is your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it's the first letter to arrive. No need to wait, if the event was in England/Wales, appeal online as registered keeper (or as ''hirer/lessee'' if that's the case, see
* below re lease/hire cars).
************************************************** ******
TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING
-
if this is a BPA member parking firm, the point is to get a POPLA code if you do not get it cancelled.
- this is why
not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69906180#post69906180
************************************************** **********************
Template appeal for BPA or IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box::
Re PCN number:
I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:
- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.
- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.
- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.
Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.
Yours faithfully,
THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER (OR THE HIRER/LESSEE) GOES HERE.
THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.
DO NOT PUT YOUR NAME HERE INSTEAD, IF YOU ARE NOT THE KEEPER/HIRER/LESSEE. YOU ARE NOT HELPING IF YOU DO THIS WRONG BY APPEALING IN THE WRONG NAME!
DON'T POST IT BY ROYAL MAIL UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION ON THE PCN. CERTAINLY NOT BY RECORDED DELIVERY - FORGET THAT! - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE - OR EMAIL IF OFFERED AS AN OPTION ON THE NOTICE - BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP PROOF/ A SCREENSHOT. NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER APPEAL OPTION BUT POSTAL...BUT OF COURSE YOU PUT YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS!
You
can (carefully!) add a little to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...':
-
the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as
'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.
- If an occupant of the car is disabled or elderly/infirm, then the keeper can add that, without implying who was driving. A copy of the Blue Badge (BB) is a good idea to upload/attach, but a person with a
long-term debilitating condition (not a broken arm!) can be disabled without a BB, and will be legally entitled to a 'reasonable adjustment'. That can and should include an extension of time, over and above free or paid-for parking time.
************************************************** ******
Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper,
if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to
Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (look for the words shown in
paragraph 8 if it's a 'windscreen ticket followed by a NTK', or the words in
paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN only):
[/FONT]
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
If the NTK arrives late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.
If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket.
Or, the NTK must arrive with you between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen PCN.
Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA.
************************************************** ***************************
* COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK
In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before
day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.
You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay if they do get a letter about it because they have no business to get involved in a fake PCN you have already appealed as driver, and you won't reimburse them if they are daft enough to pay it.
If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely
and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case - but check and see if they have charged an admin fee. Challenge that admin fee with the Fleet Manager, Hire firm or your HR Manager, if your car use t&cs do not support this deduction for a
mere invoice (as opposed to a fine/penalty).
Here are some examples of a successful first appeal. These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (pretty much ALWAYS!) failed to send the required documents to the hirer (you) with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5703794
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583
Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal for when it's a Hire/company/lease car and a
postal Notice has been sent out, after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'! So stay schtum about who was driving!
Here is Edna Basher's latest 2018 draft appeal for a Fleet Manager
(hirer company) to use:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5881338
Worked the same day!
