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  • FIRST POST
    • kittie
    • By kittie 18th Nov 08, 1:22 PM
    • 12,444Posts
    • 79,059Thanks
    kittie
    It is tough NOW. So how are we coping
    • #1
    • 18th Nov 08, 1:22 PM
    It is tough NOW. So how are we coping 18th Nov 08 at 1:22 PM
    I started the `if things get tougher` thread in feb 2006. That thread has had over 235,000 views and it is now time to change emphasis. We are slap bang in the middle of the tough times and it is time to tread water and to look forward to a brighter future, probably in another 2 years

    Personally, I am frugal but very comfortable and have built a huge stockcupboard which will see me through several months, provided I have fruit and veg. I have a savings safety net, which I draw from every month because the only income until 2012 is from my small pension. I cycle when I can and have given my car away but we still have one car, used frugally. Energy use is minimal to maintain a good level of comfort

    All this and more, has been achieved since feb 2006 and I raise a glass to everybody in the `tougher` community and I wish you all well and good fortune as we get through this. Let us link arms and we will all survive together
    Last edited by kittie; 18-11-2008 at 1:31 PM.
Page 139
    • adouglasmhor
    • By adouglasmhor 17th Mar 09, 12:29 PM
    • 14,571 Posts
    • 21,365 Thanks
    adouglasmhor
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic

    Change the locks when she is out. Don't pay her taxi or phone bill.. She needs to grow up and sorry to say you need to do it too, she thinks you are a mug. Get a friend to be be with you when you tell her that rules are being laid down if you can, and if she doens't abide by them she can go and live full time wwith BF, you don't owe her - she owes you.
    The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head. Terry Pratchett


    http.thisisnotalink.cm
    • brila
    • By brila 17th Mar 09, 12:37 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 437 Thanks
    brila
    recovering spendaholic: I was in a very similar position to your daughter and my mum changed the locks and put all my stuff in the garage. It was a bit of a shock but was absolutely the best thing that ever happened to me. After a couple of months of whining I discovered the real cost of living, having rented a place (with bills!) and been unable to afford it. I moved into the garage for six months, sold all my stuff, saved like mad and then went travelling having paid my family a lump sum for renting the garage and having scrounged so shamefully for years. I came back several years wiser with a trade and more of an idea of my place in the grand scheme of things (ie not the centre!). Be strong, she may thank you (some time) later.
  • elizabunny
    Just a little update. I feel as if I have been moaning all week ......sorry It's just that DS2 has now received a call re: his x-ray, to tell him that YES the foot he has been struggling around on for the past 2 weeks and 2 days is indeed fractured and his GP wants to discuss the options with him. Great!and what a ridiculously crazy situation. DS2 is due home friday to have stitches removed from an unrelated op. -can't see him being too thrilled if the options include having the break reset and plastered . He usually (when fit enough) walks a 5 mile round trip too and from work everyday, because he would have to change tube too many times to get where he is going. Life just gets more complicated I'm sure my pessimism is down to this chest infection I've picked up I'm usually quite upbeat.

    Anyway on a much brighter note it's St Patricks Day so Happy St. Ps.Day to all those celebrating. DH is from Ireland I am making a special dinner tonight for us and DS1 and his OH are coming over to enjoy it with us. Off to sort out a pud now
    Last edited by elizabunny; 17-03-2009 at 2:11 PM.
    Sealed Pot Challenge 7 Member 022
    5:2 Diet started 28/1/2013 only 13lbs lost due to Xmas 2013 blip.
  • mummysaver
    Afternoon everyone!

    Just had a lovely water bill and council tax bill yesterday - sometimes I feel like the little Dutch boy trying to plug the dam with his finger lol! Still can't do a whole lot about the cost of either really, and they are part of the budget, but still.........

    On the bright side I found several reduced bits at work last night, all for pennies, included some prepared veg (okay for SC and soup, but not sure that I'd want to eat it as it is, prepared veg just never looks very fresh?), pancakes (for when I run out of time to make them for dd3 in the morning) and bagels - dd1's favourite!

    The store cupboard is working really well. I'm finding that by buying several of items I use a lot when they are on offer, or reduced and freezable, then they seem to last till the next good offer. I have lots of butter from the recent offers, a friend opened my fridge last week and just stood staring! Didn't like to tell him about the rest of the butter that I'd already put in the freezer! I have a selection of pastas and plenty of sugar and UHT milk. I just need to get more supplies of flour now, down to the last couple of bags of bread flour, and s/r and plain as well, plenty of wholemeal still, and other assorted specialist type ones! Need to have a search for the cheapest, seems like 68p is the standard for bread flour at the mo though!

    To those who have children old enough to pay for their keep, I fully believe that the children should contribute as reasonable amount. My children all know that they will one day pay rent if they are still living at home - in the same way that they all have to contribute by doing chores now, we all live here and we are all responsible. They aren't always thrilled about doing assorted jobs, but they do do them, they all know how to load the wm, fill the bm, hoover, mop, make beds, and cook, etc. Good luck to all of you thrashing out agreements though, I'm sure it isn't at all easy.
    • kittie
    • By kittie 17th Mar 09, 3:18 PM
    • 12,444 Posts
    • 79,059 Thanks
    kittie
    RS I have sent you a pm

    has anyone heard from happytails? I would really love to know about her baby
    • p00
    • By p00 17th Mar 09, 4:01 PM
    • 705 Posts
    • 1,564 Thanks
    p00
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic
    You dont 'have to' pay her phone bill or anything else when she's working do you really. My children stopped getting pocket money when they started their paper rounds. They paid board from the day they started work. They now all have good jobs, houses of their own and few debts and no overdrafts. They have never resented having to help financially.

    It is not cruel to make children pay their way and at 18 they arent children anyway. Just tell her if she doesnt like contributing and paying her own bills she can always rent her own place instead. Be a bit harder and stop feeling guilty.

    xxp00
    • Rummer
    • By Rummer 17th Mar 09, 4:07 PM
    • 6,427 Posts
    • 37,994 Thanks
    Rummer
    Recovering Spendaholic, I agree with a lot of the the other posters, you need to change the locks and out yourself first. Not easy I know but she needs to learn the value of money and to see how well looked after she has been. Take care and I send a huge (((((hug)))))
    Taking responsibility one penny at a time!
    • the_cat
    • By the_cat 17th Mar 09, 4:23 PM
    • 2,099 Posts
    • 11,347 Thanks
    the_cat
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic
    RS
    You have my greatest sympathy in dealing with this problem. It must be very draining, especially as you are unwell.

    As tough as it sounds I agree with the others. Your DD needs to step up and act like the adult she now is, not a tantruming 2 year old. The best thing you could do for her is to stop this now while she is still young. The longer she gets away with it the more she will think that 'life' owes her and expect this treatment for ever more, both from you and others. This is not fair to you and it is not fair to her either. She needs to learn adult responsibilities.

    So time for tough love. She either plays the game or moves out. The only reason she throws a strop is that she knows it will work. Try to work out a plan you would be happy with and put it to her when she is calm, preferably with another adult there to back you up and keep her from manipulating you (if that's what might happen). As an adult it is her choice whether to accept these new rules and it is her responsibility to find someplace else if she doesn't.

    You need to do this for your own health and sanity. You also need to do it to help her become an adult.

    much love
    Cat
    • carrieann
    • By carrieann 17th Mar 09, 4:49 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    carrieann
    Mummysaver - i use value plain flour in the breadmaker and the bread turns out fine - you could give it a go as its usually about 39p!
    • daska
    • By daska 17th Mar 09, 5:19 PM
    • 6,011 Posts
    • 11,915 Thanks
    daska
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic
    The previous posters are correct. Your daughter needs to grow up and your duty as a parent is to help her do this... (I have had to do this with a family member so I know how tough it is.)

    Your 'to do' list:

    1. Write your list of house rules and present it to your daughter so that she has the option of reading them and complying. Tell her how much rent you expect and how much for food etc.

    2. Is the phone contract in your name? If it is then ring the supplier NOW and get a PAC for her (this should automatically cancel the contract in 30 days). It then becomes her choice to set a up contract and keep the number if she wants.

    3. Empty the fridge and the cupboards so there is no food to raid.

    4. Ask someone you trust to look after your cash/cards and chequebook. Explain the reason so that they can 'be out' if she worms it out of you and decides to get agressive with them. That way you truthfully tell her you can't pay her bills even if you want to.

    5. Does she always use the same cab company. If so then next time she leaves you to pay them explain that this is the last time you will do this. Inform your daughter that you will provide the taxi companies with her details so that they can recoup their fares and costs.

    6. Don't engage with her behaviour. One phrase only, repeated, e.g. 'You have to pay your own bills now'. Unless she makes the effort to help sort the problem out then don't argue, don't explain, just repeat.

    If she won't change her behaviour then... Does she have any kind of tenancy rights where you live. If not then she is 18 and you can give her written notice requiring her to move out - that's fair, it means she's got proof that she's officially homeless - she'll get a shock that she won't walk into somewhere but at least she'll be on the list.

    Changing the car sounds sensible...
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 17th Mar 09, 5:33 PM
    • 9,110 Posts
    • 33,082 Thanks
    Primrose
    Daska's advice is very sensible. You need to stand up to your daughter, no matter how "in your face" she gets. Just keep your temper, however hard it may be, and confront her in a very cool and calm but determined manner. Once she understands she can't crack you, she is faced with a choice. You're not being unkind to her by doing this. You'll be helping her to grow up and face the realities of the real world. These may come as a shock to her, but perhaps this is just what she needs. It's a cold hard world out there at the moment, and it's not too early for her to start to understand how the cards stack up. Wherever else she goes she will soon discover that the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence.
    • cw18
    • By cw18 17th Mar 09, 6:08 PM
    • 8,086 Posts
    • 86,101 Thanks
    cw18
    Another Mum here totally in agreement with the 'be tough' brigade.

    My elder son messed around at school (regularly bunking off), but then decided he wanted to go to college. So I said I'd support him through that - as long as he upheld his end of the bargain (ie. attending and doing homework). When it became clear he wasn't doing he was given 3 choice

    1. knuckle down at college
    2. get a job, and pay his way at home
    3. do neither, but do all the housework and cooking (I worked FT days, DH worked FT nights)

    After a month he wasn't doing any of these, so a week before Christmas (and 3 months short of his 17th) he came home to find his "essentials" in black bags and the door shut on his face.

    After a spell in hostels he decided he didn't like the way his life was heading - and it's now just over 2 years since he joined the Army. While home at the end of last year he actually said he totally understands why I did what I did, and has come to realise how hard it must have been for me to do it

    My DD doesn't bring home much more than yours - though she does get CTC and WTC o top of it - from which she has to run a home (including rent and council tax) and raise two young girls !!
    Cheryl
  • ceridwen
    recoveringspendaholic

    I'm sorry to hear what your daughter is like.....I would certainly join in the "tough love" idea expressed....I would refuse pointblank to cover her taxi fares and the like and very much take the attitude "you played - YOU pay" and say that she had two choices - either hand over, say, 150 per month for her "board" and cover her own taxifares and cover her own mobile phonebill or move out..."take your pick...its a sight cheaper here than out there". Ultimately - its not doing either her or anyone else that ever encounters her in the future any favours if she is allowed to get away with being so selfish and thoughtless.

    I'm not a maternal person - so I dont know what it is like to feel maternal responsibility for someone else thats true - so I imagine you have those feelings to contend with. But - at a very practical level - what is the worst case analysis as to what this selfish brat (sorry - but not to put too fine a point upon it) will do if you are insistent that she is responsible and pays her way....would she do something like being physically destructive of your property?

    Personal responsibility is one of the lessons we all have to learn - whether we like it or no - and ultimately you will be doing her a favour if she learns that lesson early on in life.
    Last edited by ceridwen; 17-03-2009 at 7:32 PM.
  • Penny-Pincher!!
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic
    Hey Hun!

    Just wanted to send you a hug.

    Your DD is acting terribly and taking advantage of you-you DON'T deserve that! I know it's difficult, but YOU are the parent and adult and you SHOULDN'T/won't accept this behaviour anymore. I understand you don't like confrontation but she obviously knows this and is using this to her advantage and taking the pi**!

    YOU ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THIS!! This can't be doing your health any good either.

    Come on......chin up.....show her who's boss......YOU ARE!! We all have faith in you.

    Hugs and kisses.

    PP
    xx
    To repeat what others have said, requires education, to challenge it,
    requires brains!

    FEB GC/DIESEL 200/4 WEEKS
  • wigglebeena
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic
    Change the locks? If a kid of mine under 18 did that then Social Services would find them dumped on the doorstep. Over 18, disowned and locked out.
  • wigglebeena
    Kids have responsibilities as well as parents.
    • daska
    • By daska 17th Mar 09, 8:02 PM
    • 6,011 Posts
    • 11,915 Thanks
    daska
    Kids have responsibilities as well as parents.
    Originally posted by wigglebeena
    At 18, recovering spendaholic's daughter is not a kid...

    But I agree with you, yes, kids have responsibilities comensurate with their age and understanding. They also have rights galore with which they can beat you over the head until they 'come of age' - in which case you can beat them (metaphorically).
    • MRSTITTLEMOUSE
    • By MRSTITTLEMOUSE 17th Mar 09, 11:00 PM
    • 8,080 Posts
    • 19,560 Thanks
    MRSTITTLEMOUSE
    Kids have responsibilities as well as parents.
    Originally posted by wigglebeena
    I could'nt agree more.I've brought up three daughters and believe me your'e not doing her any favours letting her think life is a free ride.You need to be tough,she needs to realise that everything in life has to be paid for.You'd be doing her a favour in the long run,otherwise when she has to be responisble for herself it's going to come as an almighty shock.
    If she does'nt like your rules and whatever amount you charge her tell her she's old enough to make her own way in life.
    Ten to one she'll think again.
    It's a matter of respect as much as anything.
  • sillylittlejill
    I wish it were that simple for me. I have an 18 year old who earns about 600 net a month. She refuses to pay me anything for keep and I still pay her mobile phone bill can be up to 50 each month. She also comes in at all hours of the night in a taxi for which she has no money to pay and I have to pay for it - last week she did it four times at 7 a time. She lives half the time at the bf's and so raids the fridge and cupboards daily for food to take to his student house, and if I say no she rants and raves at me. I was made redundant over a year ago and have no income at all other than a little child tax credit and incapacity benefit (I am waiting for a heart operation) - I am using my redundancy money to stretch that out to pay the mortgage and so on - it is do-able at the moment but I don't know what I will do when the redundancy money eventually runs out. I struggle to assert myself with her because she is very "in your face" and agressive but I wish I knew how to tackle it. I have made cutbacks and only have the heating and hot water on for a couple of hours a day, plus I did the downshifting grocery thing about a year ago and now buy alot of basics stuff and also shop in Lidl and Aldi (although I am not convinced they are that cheap any more). I am seriously considering getting rid of my car (it's on a lease thing with a balloon payment due in June) as someone I know is selling a Ford Focus which they have had from new and that would save me 127 a month in payments for a 750 one-off cost.

    I enjoy reading your posts and have "lurked" up to now, so hope you don't mind me joining in.
    Originally posted by recovering spendaholic

    Hi

    I just wanted to say that as someone from that age range (I'm 20 next monday) I think that you really need to be tough, my mum was just like you except she wouldn't pay for my phone, when I got my first job I suggested that I should pay something which she was really relieved because she was (and still is!) struggling with a small(ish) amount of money. I was on 650 a month and managed to spend 100 on rent for mum, 35 on my phone, and the rest I spent on shopping and generally nothing!! When I moved out last year I had a breakdown because of everything that happened, my mum was very easy on me (even easier on my lil sister!) so when I moved out I broke down, spent 1500 on my credit card which maxed it out and know I'm in this horrible situation, unemployed, living in my parents front room and being chased by debt collectors.
    You don't want your daughter in this situation trust me. Write rules down, get either your OH or a family member who will stand up to her when she says they are mean etc. Please don't let your daughter walk all over you, my sister is doing that to my mum, she is going to uni in a year and I honestly think she will be back after a few weeks because she doesn't know how to cope. At 18, she should be more like a lodger than a child. She is an adult and you both need to realise this.


    Sorry if this comes across as mean, hope you understand I'm trying to help

    xxx
    • Bitsy Beans
    • By Bitsy Beans 18th Mar 09, 8:54 AM
    • 9,433 Posts
    • 65,784 Thanks
    Bitsy Beans
    RS I can only echo what everyone else has said.
    by being "in your face" as you put it she is bullying you and trying to intimidate you by being agressive and it's working. You wouldn't put up with this off a stranger or a work colleague so don't accept it from your daughter. Someone mentioned having support with you when you issue the ground rules. I think this is a good idea but you've got to stick by what you say. if she's agressive call the police. She is getting away with treating you like this because you let her. Don't be a mug - sooner she learns what real life is like the better.
    Sorry I might sound harsh but being meek and mild isn't going to get you the guts to stand up to her.
    I have a gift for enraging people, but if I ever bore you it'll be with a knife Louise Brooks

    All will be well in the end. If it's not well, it's not the end.

    Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars
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