Ground Source Heat Pumps

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  • beardymarrow
    beardymarrow Posts: 311
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    Patrol wrote: »
    For reference this is the cooldown I am getting after shutting most of my heating circuit down. Beardy, if you have the same DHW unit VB 300 / 160 this may help show what it is capable of even with some remaining loss to the heating circuit.
    n.b. it is installed in my utility so warmer than if in a garage.

    At start the towel rails were open. 2 rads on frost, 2 on setting 2 of 5 so won't be opened at current temperatures. UFH on about 35% of recommended setting. Bypass is fully open.

    17.50 53.7
    18.12 52.4 (-0.6 in 22mins)
    18.20 52.1 turned towel rails off about 18.15. (-0.3 in 8mins)
    19.05 50.9 (-1.2 in 45 mins)
    19.50 50.4 (-0.5 in 45 mins)
    21.40 49.5 (-0.9 in 1h50mins)

    With my heating circuits open the DHW off-to-on time can be less than 30 minutes. It is now over 4 hours with a partial shut-off mid cool and I would guess at least another 2-3 hours before the next cycle starts.

    That's the sort of figures I was expecting from my tank based on what I've read on other well insulated tanks, so that is really really useful. I now know what I'm aiming at. Mine is in a boiler room on the side of the house, so it's not perfectly insulated, but it's not too bad. It's cavity wall, but has got big drafty doors.

    How come it will be another 2-3Hrs before the next cycle starts? What's your DHW temp and hysteresis set at (I had assumed it was 52c and 4c, so therefore it's going to kick in at 50c, i.e. any second now?).

    These are my stats :-
    Time	ExtHotWaterGT3x	Compressor
    09:11	50.3	OFF
    09:12	50.3	ON
    09:43	56.6	ON
    09:44	56.9	OFF
    09:45	56.9	OFF
    10:00	55.6	OFF
    10:15	54.7	OFF
    10:30	54	OFF
    10:45	53.4	OFF
    11:00	53.1	OFF
    11:15	52.7	OFF
    11:30	52.4	OFF
    11:45	52	OFF
    12:00	51.7	OFF
    12:15	51.4	OFF
    12:30	51.1	OFF
    12:45	50.9	OFF
    13:00	50.4	OFF
    13:15	50.1	OFF
    13:28	50	OFF
    13:29	50	ON
    

    So, 32 mins to heat up (but then mine is currently heating up by 7c as an experiment), and then 3Hr 45Mins to lose that 7c. Yours is losing 4c in 4Hrs, which is much more like what I would expect.

    I'll change mine tonight to be 4c to more accurately compare. I'll also switch the DHW recirc valve off (the pump was off at the time above, but the valves were open).
  • beardymarrow
    beardymarrow Posts: 311
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    lovesgshp wrote: »
    Beardy.
    Re ELA and H10 unit, these are the replies I have just received:

    electric anode alarm
    in the control unit Rego 637 that I know there's not this alarm. Electric anode in C series is not connected to the control unit, there is only the control led. In the new HE, instead, electric anode is connected to the Rego 1000. However, in any accumulation you can install a third parties electric anode.

    hus data cable
    I've never seen anything like it. Thanks for the tip.
    When I asked to IVT if it was possible an interface from that parallel port, the response was approximately that it can only be used at the factory. Any unauthorized use may invalidate the warranty, then you can do anything, but unfortunately we can not get support.

    Thanks for your help with the Electric Anode alarm. The alarm hasn't re-occurred for the last 3 nights, since I factory reset, so that's sorted it!

    I'm not worried about the H10 at all. it's opto-isolated, so it can't cause any harm. Looks like IVT themselves started to sell it at one point - http://www.ivtathome.se/pages/startPage.asp and https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdoc.ivt.se%2Fdownload.asp%3Fpt%3Dpdf%26fn%3DManual_StatLink_V3.0.8.pdf&ei=iZt0U8j-EI2xPKCngfAG&usg=AFQjCNH5de_Va4OrqjEHkfLgaXHIOr0iwQ&sig2=o6JCuePDs1awxWo55h0-Xw&bvm=bv.66699033,d.ZWU. Possibly not anymore as they try to sell IVT Anywhere now I guess on the Rego 1000.
  • Patrol
    Patrol Posts: 134
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    edited 15 May 2014 at 4:17PM
    That's the sort of figures I was expecting from my tank based on what I've read on other well insulated tanks, so that is really really useful. I now know what I'm aiming at. Mine is in a boiler room on the side of the house, so it's not perfectly insulated, but it's not too bad. It's cavity wall, but has got big drafty doors.

    How come it will be another 2-3Hrs before the next cycle starts? What's your DHW temp and hysteresis set at (I had assumed it was 52c and 4c, so therefore it's going to kick in at 50c, i.e. any second now?).
    It was originally 51, dropped to 50 then 48 as suggested here, then increased to 50 and back to 49 at the time those were posted. As I now know the valve is the problem I have put it back to 48. I suspect I am losing less than 4C in 4 hours now with the heating circuit closed back - will try and catch a full cooldown to confirm.
    edit, hysteresis is 4C, and there was a 2C setting for something else that might affect it, think that was the overnight reduction setting.
  • Patrol
    Patrol Posts: 134
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    Hysteresis.
    I'm probably wrong but I thought it worked like this. At a 51C setting a DHW cycle would heat to 55C to get the 4C hysteresis. It would then cool until 2C below the desired temperature, i.e.49C and the next cycle would start.

    52C would give a range of 56C down to 50C. That's what your data shows.
    49C would give a range of 53C down to 47C. That's what my data showed.
    48C would give a range of 52C down to 46C. That's what I should now see, and what lovegshp may be seeing.

    I observed a cutoff at 53.3C which then rose to 53.7C before the cooling started which ties in with what lovegshp said would happen with a double skinned cylinder.

    (hope I've got that right)
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413
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    Patrol:
    Make sure you leave at least 70% of the heating circuit open, otherwise you may have problems. You could change the summer disconnect to a lower temp to stop the heating switching back in.
    With regard to the 2C reduction on overnight, that is just for the heating system, if a timer setting. DHW timer is on or off.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • Patrol
    Patrol Posts: 134
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    I don't think the 70% applies with the bypass?

    Looks like the valve B position has had it, heating time is staying short but cooling down quicker than before.
    - GT1 has dropped by 5C to 48C about 90 minutes after a cycle.
    - GT3 return is 37C at the same time.
    - ESBE needle is fully in the B position.
    - Both supplies and both returns are warm-hot at GSHP entry.
    Nothing else I can do other than replace it (I suppose I could shove it back and forth in frustration). I've had confirmation the LK Armatur was despatched today.

    I've only used 17 units of electricity today which includes 1 dishwasher and 3 washing machine runs so way below what I'd normally get even with the current issue. Looking forward to see what it is with a working valve.
  • Patrol
    Patrol Posts: 134
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    Hi
    Valve replaced. All seems OK apart from I had a slight seep on the outside (supply heating) which I hadn't touched - had undone the supply DHW one but should have done both.

    Took 17 mins to go from 45.6 to 53, will report more later. Have opened towel rails up so will see how it goes. Fingers crossed.
  • Patrol
    Patrol Posts: 134
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    Doesn't look right.

    It appears to be sat in the A position when doing nothing. If I manually use 5.3 setting I get this;
    Activate - Points to A
    Deactivate - Points to B

    Coming out of 5.3 is setting it back to A again.

    If I take the summer disconnect up to say 27C it switches to B and the heating fluid flows without the GSHP switched on. The towel rails are rattling so I need to bleed them and the radiators - is that the best way to bleed the heating circuit or should I also be doing something else?

    If I take the summer disconnect back down to 18C it switches back to A and the heating fluid stops. Wont the DHW cylinder lose temperature more quickly like this?
  • beardymarrow
    beardymarrow Posts: 311
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    Patrol wrote: »
    Doesn't look right.

    It appears to be sat in the A position when doing nothing. If I manually use 5.3 setting I get this;
    Activate - Points to A
    Deactivate - Points to B

    Coming out of 5.3 is setting it back to A again.

    If I take the summer disconnect up to say 27C it switches to B and the heating fluid flows without the GSHP switched on. The towel rails are rattling so I need to bleed them and the radiators - is that the best way to bleed the heating circuit or should I also be doing something else?

    If I take the summer disconnect back down to 18C it switches back to A and the heating fluid stops. Wont the DHW cylinder lose temperature more quickly like this?

    So, on mine the A on the valve goes to hot water side and B goes to rads. Mine is currently sat in position A (because summer disconnect is on at my house).

    So I think the actuator is doing the right thing. Yours is sat in A (presumably because summer disconnect has kicked in), but would switch to B if it needed to provide rad heat. Maybe your valve is the wrong way around though?

    Is your valve the right way around (B to the left, A to the right) as per my picture?
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413
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    If the summer disconnect is at the right outside temp to stop the heating cycle, then the valve will move to the "A" position. It knows that only DHW may be required. As soon as outside temp gets lower it will move between the 2 depending on the demand.
    With the bleeding, you may have some auto air vents above the pump, but yes, you will need to bleed the rads etc
    Glad you managed to change the valve OK.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
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