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  • FIRST POST
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 10th Jan 19, 5:40 PM
    • 101Posts
    • 31Thanks
    redlfc
    Which professions do you think are overworked/underpaid? Similarly which are well paid?
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 19, 5:40 PM
    Which professions do you think are overworked/underpaid? Similarly which are well paid? 10th Jan 19 at 5:40 PM
    Now I'm not writing this as a way of just moaning/complaining but just wanted your thoughts

    Background - 25 year old junior doctor in London , now in year 2 of employment post finishing degree. I have recently found out my student loan has been collecting a whopping 6.1-6.6% interest throughout my years at medical school (started Sept 2012)

    My current repayment amount sits at over 70k! and still collecting interest at 6.1%.

    My main grievance is with the salary I get for the hours/stressload I experience at work. The basic salary for FY1 Doctor is 26,614 for a 40 hour week - this is increased with additional nights/weekends/bank holiday/evening on calls - so it depends on what rotation you are on but I was being paid 30,450 for working 1 in 4/5 weekends (12.5 hour shifts Friday-Sun) +the rest of the of the nights/on calls

    This basic salary goes up incrementally as you progress but only to a max of 46,500 at ST8 level before consultancy (this would take 11 years to get to (F1/F2/CT1-3/ST3-8) and thats without taking any time out)



    So thats a salary of 46,500 after accumulating 70+k debt (and rising) at 5/6 years of medical school, and a further 11 years to get to this figure. So thats 17 years from starting university to get to earning 46,500 for a 40 hour week - and thats if you are one of the very very few individuals who has managed to pass straight through medschool/training without any time out for research/gap years/resits/maternity etc - in reality its longer (I have kept it at 40 hour to allow comparison to other jobs - note I know not everyone works 40 hours in reality but contractually this allows easy comparison as most jobs are 40 hour weeks)



    Now I am lucky that I am still living at home with my parents - but if I was renting in London with the salary I am getting plus the student debt ive accumulated - I would be struggling to stay afloat - and that would be potentially for years as you can see the salary does not improve that much. It is only when you get to consultant level that the salary hits 75k and above.

    Having compared my salary to many friends - I am the least paid by far. Now I did not go into Medicine for money but this is depressing. I also work far more than they do - and they are always wondering how I manage to constantly have to do nights/weekends - it is these shifts which are the real killer!



    Am I right in thinking most of you in finance/consulting/IT/engineering jobs are paid over 45k a couple of years post 3 year degrees? Im not saying this to try and devalue other careers - its more I feel that doctors are significantly underpaid when you consider the stress of job/unsociable hours/time spent to get to this position. I just want to know thoughts of people as it seems most of my friends are earning around 50k at the age of 25 with that likely to go up and up in a fairly short space of time.
Page 3
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 12th Jan 19, 3:58 PM
    • 5,526 Posts
    • 6,831 Thanks
    theoretica
    I dont think its fair to use gross salary including weekend work if others dont have to work on a weekend ..
    Originally posted by redlfc
    It works both ways - other careers may not have to do weekend work, but they may also not have the opportunity to increase the salary for the extra they do. Though I think very many careers do have out of hours working, not necessarily as having to be in for given hours, but as things needing to be done and deadlines and expectations that can't be met without.



    Your second point regarding comparing high fliers in other careers to "basic" doctors in medicine - again its a direct comparison based on time - to get to senior registrar level takes a minimum of 17 years from starting med school as I illustrated - I think its fair to compare since youll be atleast 35 by this point and thats if you started med school at 18 and progressed every single year without fail
    Originally posted by redlfc


    35 is only about 1/4 of the way through your working life... so assuming you hope for a salary that increases all through your working life you would still be on less than your personal average. You would need an equivalent point in other careers to compare with.


    According to this the average earnings for a GP in 2016/7 were £92.5k. https://files.digital.nhs.uk/05/386344/gp-earn-exp-1617-rep.pdf
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • Nicki
    • By Nicki 12th Jan 19, 4:05 PM
    • 7,793 Posts
    • 27,827 Thanks
    Nicki
    I’m a lawyer and I definitely have to be on call at anti social hours, work nights and weekends and do more than a 40 hour week and have done since I was newly qualified. Lawyers don’t get paid overtime for this either so you need to compare your actual take home pay with their published pay to get a true comparison.

    Lots of professional jobs come with deadlines which means that there will be long hours, weekend work and antisocial hours attached but possibly not predictably rota’d as in the medical profession.

    However a medical degree will be a passport to a range of graduate jobs so if you don’t like your current and projected future earnings OP and think the grass is greener elsewhere, just stop being a doctor and do something you perceive as better paid for the time commitment
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 12th Jan 19, 4:20 PM
    • 11,099 Posts
    • 21,028 Thanks
    Pennywise
    According to this the average earnings for a GP in 2016/7 were £92.5k. https://files.digital.nhs.uk/05/386344/gp-earn-exp-1617-rep.pdf
    Originally posted by theoretica
    Which doesn't reflect that many will be working part time, so the full time equivalent figure will be more than £92.5k.

    Also, the figures only include those earning under NHS contracts, so those who are fully freelance or locums won't be included either - these again will be earning more than contracted GPs, so if you included them, again, the average would increase above £92.5k.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 12th Jan 19, 6:32 PM
    • 17,084 Posts
    • 42,036 Thanks
    FBaby
    dont think its fair to use gross salary including weekend work if others dont have to work on a weekend ..
    As Nicky posted, it might not be in people's job descriptions, but I don't know one executive whatever their field that doesn't work evenings and weekends. They don't have to on paper, ut the reality is that if they don't, they won't keep up and therefore pass by opportunities for promotions.

    In the end very few jobs come with a £100k salary without mental strain, expectation of flexibility, and resilience whatever the sector.
    • JKGB
    • By JKGB 12th Jan 19, 10:04 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JKGB
    I work in finance and I left uni in 2013, I don't earn £45k!
    • UserName123
    • By UserName123 12th Jan 19, 10:46 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    UserName123
    My doctor friend has bought a £300k house :/ sheís mid thirties and loving by herself
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 12th Jan 19, 11:52 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 204 Thanks
    John G Jones
    What sort of job in finance, though?

    The amounts mentioned above are for graduates in investment banking.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 12th Jan 19, 11:59 PM
    • 4,284 Posts
    • 3,297 Thanks
    Tarambor
    My main grievance is with the salary I get for the hours/stressload I experience at work. The basic salary for FY1 Doctor is 26,614 for a 40 hour week - this is increased with additional nights/weekends/bank holiday/evening on calls - so it depends on what rotation you are on but I was being paid 30,450 for working 1 in 4/5 weekends (12.5 hour shifts Friday-Sun) +the rest of the of the nights/on calls
    Originally posted by redlfc
    Truck driver here. In the top five most dangerous jobs in the UK. One of the most unhealthy jobs in the UK. Some of the longest hours and low pay. Average working week is 55hrs excluding breaks with most drivers either starting or finishing between 3am and 6am in the morning. Maximum working week is 84hrs. Quite a lot of drivers leave home early hours Monday morning and don't get back until late Friday or Saturday, sleeping in the truck every night often in laybys where there isn't even a toilet let alone somewhere to get a hot meal and a shower at the end of a 15hr shift. Hourly pay for many is not much different to an Aldi shelf stacker. If you're earning £35k for a 55hr week you're doing very well and not many earn much over £40k without banging in some seriously mental hours every week. Career progression is basically non-existent. Most of us only now have a pension because the Workplace Pension gave employers no choice.

    As a junior doctor i'd suggest not complaining to lorry drivers about long hours and low pay unless you'd like them to die from a heart attack from laughing that hard.
    Last edited by Tarambor; 13-01-2019 at 12:02 AM.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 13th Jan 19, 12:45 AM
    • 3,018 Posts
    • 2,994 Thanks
    steampowered
    Out of interest whats the starting salary post 3 year degree for people in your firm?
    Originally posted by redlfc
    It varies massively depending on location and practice area.

    For lawyers, 3 years post-degree usually means just coming to the end of a stint as a trainee solicitor (1 year professional training + 2 years as a trainee solicitor; or an additional year's training for non-law graduates).

    People at that level at corporate type city firms in central London will be on £35-45k depending on the firm (and will normally have to rent near central London). Outside London it would be more like £20k.

    There is admittedly a bump the following year on qualification to about £60k for most business solicitors in central London firms, perhaps £35-40k for business solicitors elsewhere in the country, less than that for people in non-business practice areas.
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 13th Jan 19, 5:52 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    Iím a lawyer and I definitely have to be on call at anti social hours, work nights and weekends and do more than a 40 hour week and have done since I was newly qualified. Lawyers donít get paid overtime for this either so you need to compare your actual take home pay with their published pay to get a true comparison.

    Lots of professional jobs come with deadlines which means that there will be long hours, weekend work and antisocial hours attached but possibly not predictably rotaíd as in the medical profession.

    However a medical degree will be a passport to a range of graduate jobs so if you donít like your current and projected future earnings OP and think the grass is greener elsewhere, just stop being a doctor and do something you perceive as better paid for the time commitment
    Originally posted by Nicki
    Thanks - yes my sister is also a lawyer and I agree depending on what field (shes in Criminal) the pay can be really surprising (and shocking) as you usually associate lawyers with having a great salary - for instance one of my friends at Uni who studied law is now on 75k and shes a couple of years behind my sister on law terms

    Very much depends on what field though - criminal solicitors salary is very low in comparison to other fields - she does do weekend work and on calls where she could be called up at any time of the day to attend a police station. After 1 year LPC her salary on training contract was 17k for the 2 years! And thats working in greater London. Even after training contract has finished shes still on late 20k whilst working in central London and I do think for the amount she does she's vastly underpaid
    Last edited by redlfc; 13-01-2019 at 5:56 AM.
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 13th Jan 19, 5:57 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    It varies massively depending on location and practice area.

    For lawyers, 3 years post-degree usually means just coming to the end of a stint as a trainee solicitor (1 year professional training + 2 years as a trainee solicitor; or an additional year's training for non-law graduates).

    People at that level at corporate type city firms in central London will be on £35-45k depending on the firm (and will normally have to rent near central London). Outside London it would be more like £20k.

    There is admittedly a bump the following year on qualification to about £60k for most business solicitors in central London firms, perhaps £35-40k for business solicitors elsewhere in the country, less than that for people in non-business practice areas.
    Originally posted by steampowered
    thansks - yup my sister is a lawyer just commented below regarding their job
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 13th Jan 19, 6:02 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    Truck driver here. In the top five most dangerous jobs in the UK. One of the most unhealthy jobs in the UK. Some of the longest hours and low pay. Average working week is 55hrs excluding breaks with most drivers either starting or finishing between 3am and 6am in the morning. Maximum working week is 84hrs. Quite a lot of drivers leave home early hours Monday morning and don't get back until late Friday or Saturday, sleeping in the truck every night often in laybys where there isn't even a toilet let alone somewhere to get a hot meal and a shower at the end of a 15hr shift. Hourly pay for many is not much different to an Aldi shelf stacker. If you're earning £35k for a 55hr week you're doing very well and not many earn much over £40k without banging in some seriously mental hours every week. Career progression is basically non-existent. Most of us only now have a pension because the Workplace Pension gave employers no choice.

    As a junior doctor i'd suggest not complaining to lorry drivers about long hours and low pay unless you'd like them to die from a heart attack from laughing that hard.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    I totally agree that your job is very difficult/stressful/lack of family time

    However i wasnt "complaining to lorry drivers" when I made the thread - it was based on salaries for professional degrees in fields such as medicine/law/finance/IT/engineering as mentioned at the bottom of my post.

    The work and pay for careers such as yours /cleaners/manual labour/ is a whole different topic. However what I will say is that my hourly salary breaks down to 12/13 an hour - there was quite a bit on the news in last couple years how the Aldi workers you mentioned were making more per hour than junior doctors were
    • Mrs Soup
    • By Mrs Soup 13th Jan 19, 10:25 AM
    • 574 Posts
    • 1,096 Thanks
    Mrs Soup
    I have some sympathy but at least you have the potential for a significantly higher salary at some point. I have more sympathy for your nursing colleagues who also have to do a degree these days albeit three years who will never be able to earn that much and are just as crucial as doctors in caring for people.
    Did you go into it for the money or for other reasons as well.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jan 19, 10:42 AM
    • 4,047 Posts
    • 10,861 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    Your work roster sounds far, far easier than what I have always had to put up with. Though to be fair I do get paid more.

    A 40 hour work week is nothing. That is what, 8 hours per day? That's 9 - 5 !!!
    Originally posted by steampowered
    You don't seriously think that junior doctors only work the hours they are rostered for, do you?
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jan 19, 10:49 AM
    • 4,047 Posts
    • 10,861 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel

    As a junior doctor i'd suggest not complaining to lorry drivers about long hours and low pay unless you'd like them to die from a heart attack from laughing that hard.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    You really can't compare driving to what's involved in a typical junior doctor's working week!

    A week as a HGV driver would be a nice holiday for a junior doc!
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jan 19, 10:51 AM
    • 4,047 Posts
    • 10,861 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    I have some sympathy but at least you have the potential for a significantly higher salary at some point. I have more sympathy for your nursing colleagues who also have to do a degree these days albeit three years who will never be able to earn that much and are just as crucial as doctors in caring for people.
    Did you go into it for the money or for other reasons as well.
    Originally posted by Mrs Soup
    As a specialist nurse who often does a 50-60 hour week while being paid for 37.5, I have no issue with junior doctors having a little moan. I wouldn't trade places, not even with the prospect of the consultant salaries in the future.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 13th Jan 19, 8:11 PM
    • 4,284 Posts
    • 3,297 Thanks
    Tarambor
    You really can't compare driving to what's involved in a typical junior doctor's working week!

    A week as a HGV driver would be a nice holiday for a junior doc!
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    I can't palm off procedures to nurses and lower grade JDs to do, there's no hospital full of staff to help be do things, I'm on my own. And if I'm sick there's no generous public sector sick pay to allow me to afford to take time off work, literally only the norovirus would stop us.
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 13th Jan 19, 8:56 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 204 Thanks
    John G Jones
    I totally agree that your job is very difficult/stressful/lack of family time

    However i wasnt "complaining to lorry drivers" when I made the thread - it was based on salaries for professional degrees in fields such as medicine/law/finance/IT/engineering as mentioned at the bottom of my post.

    The work and pay for careers such as yours /cleaners/manual labour/ is a whole different topic. However what I will say is that my hourly salary breaks down to 12/13 an hour - there was quite a bit on the news in last couple years how the Aldi workers you mentioned were making more per hour than junior doctors were
    Originally posted by redlfc
    While I do understand your point of view, you do come across as just a little bit entitled, and unaware of the good deal that you are getting. You are young, you are still learning, and you are still getting a decent wage.

    You seem to think that you deserve more, but why? Are you clearly the best from your course? Are you going above and beyond to make a difference, are you changing the way medicine works, improving systems, looking at ways in which the statistics are misleading and noticing clever ways to improve patient outcomes, or are you just turning up, doing what is expected, and then going home?

    In my business that would get you through for a few years, but would then put you in the bottom few percent and likely see you out, never to work again in the business. In your job it is virtually impossible to be sacked, the pension is extremely generous, and if you screw up and kill some people then others will likely close ranks and protect you.

    To be honest, given these facts, I could see people arguing that you are slightly overpaid rather than underpaid.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 13th Jan 19, 10:43 PM
    • 4,047 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    I can't palm off procedures to nurses and lower grade JDs to do, there's no hospital full of staff to help be do things, I'm on my own. And if I'm sick there's no generous public sector sick pay to allow me to afford to take time off work, literally only the norovirus would stop us.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    You clearly have absolutely no idea what a junior doctor's day (and/or night) involves.
    • MsPisces
    • By MsPisces 13th Jan 19, 10:50 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    MsPisces
    To answer the title question in bold i would say that for the work they do and the pay they receive nurses and doctors are among the most underpaid and overworked,
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