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  • FIRST POST
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 10th Jan 19, 5:40 PM
    • 101Posts
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    redlfc
    Which professions do you think are overworked/underpaid? Similarly which are well paid?
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 19, 5:40 PM
    Which professions do you think are overworked/underpaid? Similarly which are well paid? 10th Jan 19 at 5:40 PM
    Now I'm not writing this as a way of just moaning/complaining but just wanted your thoughts

    Background - 25 year old junior doctor in London , now in year 2 of employment post finishing degree. I have recently found out my student loan has been collecting a whopping 6.1-6.6% interest throughout my years at medical school (started Sept 2012)

    My current repayment amount sits at over 70k! and still collecting interest at 6.1%.

    My main grievance is with the salary I get for the hours/stressload I experience at work. The basic salary for FY1 Doctor is 26,614 for a 40 hour week - this is increased with additional nights/weekends/bank holiday/evening on calls - so it depends on what rotation you are on but I was being paid 30,450 for working 1 in 4/5 weekends (12.5 hour shifts Friday-Sun) +the rest of the of the nights/on calls

    This basic salary goes up incrementally as you progress but only to a max of 46,500 at ST8 level before consultancy (this would take 11 years to get to (F1/F2/CT1-3/ST3-8) and thats without taking any time out)



    So thats a salary of 46,500 after accumulating 70+k debt (and rising) at 5/6 years of medical school, and a further 11 years to get to this figure. So thats 17 years from starting university to get to earning 46,500 for a 40 hour week - and thats if you are one of the very very few individuals who has managed to pass straight through medschool/training without any time out for research/gap years/resits/maternity etc - in reality its longer (I have kept it at 40 hour to allow comparison to other jobs - note I know not everyone works 40 hours in reality but contractually this allows easy comparison as most jobs are 40 hour weeks)



    Now I am lucky that I am still living at home with my parents - but if I was renting in London with the salary I am getting plus the student debt ive accumulated - I would be struggling to stay afloat - and that would be potentially for years as you can see the salary does not improve that much. It is only when you get to consultant level that the salary hits 75k and above.

    Having compared my salary to many friends - I am the least paid by far. Now I did not go into Medicine for money but this is depressing. I also work far more than they do - and they are always wondering how I manage to constantly have to do nights/weekends - it is these shifts which are the real killer!



    Am I right in thinking most of you in finance/consulting/IT/engineering jobs are paid over 45k a couple of years post 3 year degrees? Im not saying this to try and devalue other careers - its more I feel that doctors are significantly underpaid when you consider the stress of job/unsociable hours/time spent to get to this position. I just want to know thoughts of people as it seems most of my friends are earning around 50k at the age of 25 with that likely to go up and up in a fairly short space of time.
Page 2
    • cardsguy
    • By cardsguy 11th Jan 19, 11:18 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    cardsguy
    Pay isnít what it once was in the city, but itís still decent. We pay our interns and graduates about £60k a year probably rising to £100k on average three years in.
    Originally posted by John G Jones
    Similar experience here, Iím under 30 and in the 45% tax bracket working in IT in the City - and never had student debt to worry about.
    My first job in London paid around £60k (with 2 years experience).
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 8:44 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    Pay isnít what it once was in the city, but itís still decent. We pay our interns and graduates about £60k a year probably rising to £100k on average three years in.

    On the other hand you get the respect of society and the satisfaction of making a direct and observable difference, which has to be worth a lot.
    Originally posted by John G Jones
    what field is this if you dont mind me asking? as I do have friends in city in finance but 60k for graduate rising to 100k is unheard unless Investment banking?
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 8:48 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    Why would this mean that someone should pay you more though? Your value is what you bring to your employer, not what you had to go through to get there.

    I wonder, given that you would have known the salaries before you went down this route, why youíve chosen medicine as a career.

    I started in the civil service on the equivalent of what today would be about £25k, and it would not have gone up much had I stayed. You are misjudging what others are earning, I think.
    Originally posted by John G Jones
    unfortunately I foolishly did not look into the salary side of things in comparison to other jobs especially when taking into account degree length/student loan/low salary increases as junior - my own fault

    Just assumed as a doctor i would be very well paid
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 8:51 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    Similar experience here, Iím under 30 and in the 45% tax bracket working in IT in the City - and never had student debt to worry about.
    My first job in London paid around £60k (with 2 years experience).
    Originally posted by cardsguy
    what specifically do you do in IT? is it software development? thats incredible - well done!
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 12th Jan 19, 10:44 AM
    • 17,083 Posts
    • 42,031 Thanks
    FBaby
    You have to remember 3 years post degree is 6 years post degree for everyone else
    3 years seems a lot to you. I understand this as DD is studying Medicine and the whole road to the end really starts at gcse level. However, 3 years in the scheme of things is nothing.

    Remember that official retirement age is now 67. Three years won't mean much when you'll be able to retire at 60 because for the past 20 years, you've managed to earn £100 to £150k compared to someone who got into a £35k a job at 22 but who at 60 has 'only' managed to earn a salary of £60k in the last 20 years and can't afford to retire yet.
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 10:51 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    3 years seems a lot to you. I understand this as DD is studying Medicine and the whole road to the end really starts at gcse level. However, 3 years in the scheme of things is nothing.

    Remember that official retirement age is now 67. Three years won't mean much when you'll be able to retire at 60 because for the past 20 years, you've managed to earn £100 to £150k compared to someone who got into a £35k a job at 22 but who at 60 has 'only' managed to earn a salary of £60k in the last 20 years and can't afford to retire yet.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    yeah thanks thats a good point 3 years is a small amount of time in grand scheme of things. Good luck to your daughter!

    however the 100-150k figures are only for consultants doing private work (naturaly these fields are incredibly competitive and would take additional years of research/audits/publications/ before even being accepted onto one of these specialities) - fully qualified GPs are going to be earning 55-80k depending on OOH work

    The big jump up in salary for hospital medicine is not till consultant which starts at 75k and goes up to maximum of 105k after 20+ years as a consultant by which time youll be 60

    Prior to consultant the max basic salary is 47k as senior registrar!

    Also people who are on 35k jobs at 22 are very unlikely to earn 60k at 60 - in reality it will be 6 figures by 30s
    Last edited by redlfc; 12-01-2019 at 10:55 AM.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 12th Jan 19, 11:09 AM
    • 17,083 Posts
    • 42,031 Thanks
    FBaby
    I am friends with a number of consults ts and GPSs all in their late 40s/50s and all earn just under or above £100k.

    They do indeed private work, but they do at the SPIRE /BUPA/Nuffield companies in the area. The also do nhs work there. The GP I know earn this too although both work PT now. Another has now decided to become a Locum GP and earns over £100k. She works weekends though at a walk in centre.

    *Also people who are on 35k jobs at 22 are very unlikely to earn 60k at 60 - in reality it will be 6 figures by 30s*
    I don't think that's true. It very much depends on what they aspire to. Finance graduates within the NHS for instance can start at Band 7 and earn £35k in London but only a few will make it to band 8C and earn over £60k even in their 50s.

    In the end, whatever the profession, you make it what you want. Many doctors are happy with a £70k job, especially if marrying another professional. I think the issue is that you are in thos years where you're not really a student any longer but not recognised as valuable employee either so it feels a bit of a kick in the teeth at the moment.
    • cardsguy
    • By cardsguy 12th Jan 19, 12:07 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    cardsguy
    what specifically do you do in IT? is it software development? thats incredible - well done!
    Originally posted by redlfc
    I work for a large-ish tech company doing a mixture of software development and infrastructure work - and everything else on the side to ensure all is running smoothly. Itís pretty high pressure and I never work only 40 hours - while office hours are not that long you would usually find yourself working out of hours and on weekends (how many, Iím not sure as I donít keep track). On the upside there is no bureaucracy, no dress code (think shorts and tshirt in summer, which is both funny and awkward when most of the City is wearing a suit and tie), business class travel and very good comp. Definitely a big part of it is going above and beyond, innovating, being passionate and changing the status quo.

    This notwithstanding, a recent CompSci grad (22-23 years old) with some internship experience working for a FAANG (Facebook, Google et al) in London will definitely get at least £60-70k basic and something like $100-120k in stock RSU vesting over 4 years to start with - and even more if they went to grad school or masters, or are specialized in AI or ML. Fair when comparing to being a doctor and saving lives? Probably not, but this is the current job market and where the focus is right now.
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 12th Jan 19, 12:50 PM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 21,008 Thanks
    Pennywise
    Remember that official retirement age is now 67. Three years won't mean much when you'll be able to retire at 60 because for the past 20 years, you've managed to earn £100 to £150k compared to someone who got into a £35k a job at 22 but who at 60 has 'only' managed to earn a salary of £60k in the last 20 years and can't afford to retire yet.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    And that GP's, dentists, consultants, etc tend to retired even earlier than 60 these days. Both my GP and NHS dentist retired in their mid 50's.
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 12th Jan 19, 12:54 PM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 21,008 Thanks
    Pennywise
    however the 100-150k figures are only for consultants doing private work
    Originally posted by redlfc
    No, around £100-£120k is perfectly do-able for experienced partner GPs and NHS dentists working full time. The last firm I worked for had a lot of doctor/dentist clients and I still do a few now I have my own practice. One of the biggest challenges at the moment is keeping their total incomes under the £100k threshold to avoid the penal marginal tax rate of 62% and avoiding their NHS superannuation pension pots breaching the lifetime threshold, hence why so many only work 3/4 day weeks.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 12th Jan 19, 1:04 PM
    • 5,662 Posts
    • 9,591 Thanks
    Gavin83
    I'm quite surprised by this. I work in IT (I'm a DBA, although have done other roles in the past) and £70k is the top end I usually see in London for roles that aren't consultancy or management and that usually involves working for investment banks with long hours and a high demand environment. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place!

    I'm in the position at the moment where I could earn more elsewhere but it's likely to lead to more stress and the work/life balance won't be the same. It's all about working out your priorities.

    Tax also makes a big difference at this level. Is it worth adding more working hours and more stress to earn a few hundred more a month after tax?
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 12th Jan 19, 1:48 PM
    • 5,520 Posts
    • 6,830 Thanks
    theoretica
    Prior to consultant the max basic salary is 47k as senior registrar!
    Originally posted by redlfc

    I think one difference is that you keep quoting the basic salary, but comparing it to other job's total earnings. As you acknowledge, there is scope to earn more - how many doctors do earn only the basic salary and nothing more? Secondly, in all professions not everyone reaches the highest salaries - the senior registrar salary is part way up the salary scale for a doctor. All other careers have many people who never earn the top salaries - don't compare the highest fliers in one career with an average or basic in another.



    I suspect that you are very influenced in your perception of your earnings by your current friends and environment. Move out of London and you will instantly feel much richer by comparison to the people around you.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 2:36 PM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    I think one difference is that you keep quoting the basic salary, but comparing it to other job's total earnings. As you acknowledge, there is scope to earn more - how many doctors do earn only the basic salary and nothing more? Secondly, in all professions not everyone reaches the highest salaries - the senior registrar salary is part way up the salary scale for a doctor. All other careers have many people who never earn the top salaries - don't compare the highest fliers in one career with an average or basic in another.



    I suspect that you are very influenced in your perception of your earnings by your current friends and environment. Move out of London and you will instantly feel much richer by comparison to the people around you.
    Originally posted by theoretica
    the reason Im quoting the basic salary is as a fair way of comparison - obviously more is earnt if you include nights/weekends/evening on calls - but then other professions dont have to do this so how can i include it. Im not saying other professions start at 9 and leave at 5 on the dot of course not - neither do I when im meant to finish at 5. Everyone will always have to work more than they are contracted to in reality to get the job done

    I dont think its fair to use gross salary including weekend work if others dont have to work on a weekend ..
    Your second point regarding comparing high fliers in other careers to "basic" doctors in medicine - again its a direct comparison based on time - to get to senior registrar level takes a minimum of 17 years from starting med school as I illustrated - I think its fair to compare since youll be atleast 35 by this point and thats if you started med school at 18 and progressed every single year without fail

    you are right though i am influenced by friends/London
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 2:39 PM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    No, around £100-£120k is perfectly do-able for experienced partner GPs and NHS dentists working full time. The last firm I worked for had a lot of doctor/dentist clients and I still do a few now I have my own practice. One of the biggest challenges at the moment is keeping their total incomes under the £100k threshold to avoid the penal marginal tax rate of 62% and avoiding their NHS superannuation pension pots breaching the lifetime threshold, hence why so many only work 3/4 day weeks.
    Originally posted by Pennywise
    thanks for that! I didnt realise this as speaking to GPs/Consultants I know ive never come across anyone above 100k aside from the private orthopaedic surgeons. None of my relatives who are GPs earn over 80k
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 2:41 PM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    I work for a large-ish tech company doing a mixture of software development and infrastructure work - and everything else on the side to ensure all is running smoothly. Itís pretty high pressure and I never work only 40 hours - while office hours are not that long you would usually find yourself working out of hours and on weekends (how many, Iím not sure as I donít keep track). On the upside there is no bureaucracy, no dress code (think shorts and tshirt in summer, which is both funny and awkward when most of the City is wearing a suit and tie), business class travel and very good comp. Definitely a big part of it is going above and beyond, innovating, being passionate and changing the status quo.

    This notwithstanding, a recent CompSci grad (22-23 years old) with some internship experience working for a FAANG (Facebook, Google et al) in London will definitely get at least £60-70k basic and something like $100-120k in stock RSU vesting over 4 years to start with - and even more if they went to grad school or masters, or are specialized in AI or ML. Fair when comparing to being a doctor and saving lives? Probably not, but this is the current job market and where the focus is right now.
    Originally posted by cardsguy
    CompSci must really be in at the moment - some of my friends who I went to university with all moved to California after creating successful apps and are making a killing out there ! Its a great career to be in with this technology centred world we are living in and I think the prospects will only get better
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 2:43 PM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    I am friends with a number of consults ts and GPSs all in their late 40s/50s and all earn just under or above £100k.

    They do indeed private work, but they do at the SPIRE /BUPA/Nuffield companies in the area. The also do nhs work there. The GP I know earn this too although both work PT now. Another has now decided to become a Locum GP and earns over £100k. She works weekends though at a walk in centre.

    *Also people who are on 35k jobs at 22 are very unlikely to earn 60k at 60 - in reality it will be 6 figures by 30s*
    I don't think that's true. It very much depends on what they aspire to. Finance graduates within the NHS for instance can start at Band 7 and earn £35k in London but only a few will make it to band 8C and earn over £60k even in their 50s.

    In the end, whatever the profession, you make it what you want. Many doctors are happy with a £70k job, especially if marrying another professional. I think the issue is that you are in thos years where you're not really a student any longer but not recognised as valuable employee either so it feels a bit of a kick in the teeth at the moment.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    Thank you - I agree I think life as a junior doc in England can be very tough/demoralising - currently working in A+E and im constantly going from nights-days - working 1 in 2 weekends and its very difficult to enjoy life when you feel like youre practically living in the hospital

    Hopefully as youve suggested things will pick up once you become more senior - though I suspect medicine in the UK will become a less and less entered career with the way things are
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 12th Jan 19, 2:46 PM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 21,008 Thanks
    Pennywise
    None of my relatives who are GPs earn over 80k
    Originally posted by redlfc
    Are they full or part time?
    Are they partners in their practices?
    Are they fully experienced i.e. aged mid 40's and above?

    Younger, salaried GPs and those not working full time will indeed be around that pay level you suggest.
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 12th Jan 19, 3:03 PM
    • 101 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    redlfc
    Are they full or part time?
    Are they partners in their practices?
    Are they fully experienced i.e. aged mid 40's and above?

    Younger, salaried GPs and those not working full time will indeed be around that pay level you suggest.
    Originally posted by Pennywise
    full time 10 sessions a week 70-80k
    they are in 30s but I didnt know the age of salaried GPs matter I had thought it was just being a partner which would increase your salary
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 12th Jan 19, 3:22 PM
    • 133 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    John G Jones
    what field is this if you dont mind me asking? as I do have friends in city in finance but 60k for graduate rising to 100k is unheard unless Investment banking?
    Originally posted by redlfc
    Yes, investment banking. Most of the names that people will have heard of (Citi, Deutsche, HSBC, BoA etc.) start graduates at or around that level.

    It goes up much, much more slowly from there than it used to nowadays, and the bonus cap has changed the way it works a lot too.
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 12th Jan 19, 3:24 PM
    • 133 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    John G Jones
    unfortunately I foolishly did not look into the salary side of things in comparison to other jobs especially when taking into account degree length/student loan/low salary increases as junior - my own fault

    Just assumed as a doctor i would be very well paid
    Originally posted by redlfc
    They still can be, but I think that you need to work towards some specific roles for that. GPs can still get six figures at a reasonable age, for example, and if you become a private consultant thereís a huge amount to be made.
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