Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 10th Jan 19, 5:40 PM
    • 101Posts
    • 30Thanks
    redlfc
    Which professions do you think are overworked/underpaid? Similarly which are well paid?
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 19, 5:40 PM
    Which professions do you think are overworked/underpaid? Similarly which are well paid? 10th Jan 19 at 5:40 PM
    Now I'm not writing this as a way of just moaning/complaining but just wanted your thoughts

    Background - 25 year old junior doctor in London , now in year 2 of employment post finishing degree. I have recently found out my student loan has been collecting a whopping 6.1-6.6% interest throughout my years at medical school (started Sept 2012)

    My current repayment amount sits at over 70k! and still collecting interest at 6.1%.

    My main grievance is with the salary I get for the hours/stressload I experience at work. The basic salary for FY1 Doctor is 26,614 for a 40 hour week - this is increased with additional nights/weekends/bank holiday/evening on calls - so it depends on what rotation you are on but I was being paid 30,450 for working 1 in 4/5 weekends (12.5 hour shifts Friday-Sun) +the rest of the of the nights/on calls

    This basic salary goes up incrementally as you progress but only to a max of 46,500 at ST8 level before consultancy (this would take 11 years to get to (F1/F2/CT1-3/ST3-8) and thats without taking any time out)



    So thats a salary of 46,500 after accumulating 70+k debt (and rising) at 5/6 years of medical school, and a further 11 years to get to this figure. So thats 17 years from starting university to get to earning 46,500 for a 40 hour week - and thats if you are one of the very very few individuals who has managed to pass straight through medschool/training without any time out for research/gap years/resits/maternity etc - in reality its longer (I have kept it at 40 hour to allow comparison to other jobs - note I know not everyone works 40 hours in reality but contractually this allows easy comparison as most jobs are 40 hour weeks)



    Now I am lucky that I am still living at home with my parents - but if I was renting in London with the salary I am getting plus the student debt ive accumulated - I would be struggling to stay afloat - and that would be potentially for years as you can see the salary does not improve that much. It is only when you get to consultant level that the salary hits 75k and above.

    Having compared my salary to many friends - I am the least paid by far. Now I did not go into Medicine for money but this is depressing. I also work far more than they do - and they are always wondering how I manage to constantly have to do nights/weekends - it is these shifts which are the real killer!



    Am I right in thinking most of you in finance/consulting/IT/engineering jobs are paid over 45k a couple of years post 3 year degrees? Im not saying this to try and devalue other careers - its more I feel that doctors are significantly underpaid when you consider the stress of job/unsociable hours/time spent to get to this position. I just want to know thoughts of people as it seems most of my friends are earning around 50k at the age of 25 with that likely to go up and up in a fairly short space of time.
Page 1
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 10th Jan 19, 6:09 PM
    • 17,079 Posts
    • 42,017 Thanks
    FBaby
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 19, 6:09 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 19, 6:09 PM
    You can earn £45k 3 years post graduate but many dont. Many struggle to get a entry job and others might get to £45k but never get much higher.

    Studying Medicine is an investment. It should mean practicing in a job you're passionate about and gives you options. You could opt to work at gp and potenyilybwork part time, or do both NHS and private work and earn well over £100k.

    You have also many more options working abroad, evolving in research, teaching, armed force oe even in a cruise ship!

    The FY years are tough and it's normal you should ask yourself if you've done the right thing from a financial perspective. Saying that, why do you have to pay interest on your loan?
    • stator
    • By stator 10th Jan 19, 6:15 PM
    • 6,817 Posts
    • 4,603 Thanks
    stator
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 19, 6:15 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 19, 6:15 PM
    You've got rich friends.
    I've worked in IT for 15 years and still only pay the basic rate tax.


    The most overworked people are usually on minimum wage.

    Carers, cleaners and classroom assistants
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 10th Jan 19, 6:42 PM
    • 34,069 Posts
    • 20,651 Thanks
    getmore4less
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 19, 6:42 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 19, 6:42 PM
    Protected/closed professions tend to be underpaid overworked followed by overpaid under worked.

    You have to cross the barrier.

    Take vets the barrier is your own practice, you then employ the vets.

    Architecture, solicitors, medicine, nursing the list is endless.

    Even easy entry professional careers like the IT sector you can be part of the lower pay for ever or mega bucks by getting into the right companies and the right specialty.

    I know a window cleaner that has to be careful not to hit the vat thresholds.

    If you want big money young top grads can do $100k in the US in a couple of years experience in the right sectors.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 10th Jan 19, 7:09 PM
    • 5,506 Posts
    • 6,824 Thanks
    theoretica
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 19, 7:09 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 19, 7:09 PM
    I believe you are also suffering from national pay scales, which even with London weighting make comparative salaries in London much less attractive. A doctor's salary in many parts of the country would be much higher compared to other graduates.


    I expect banking/finance jobs to be well paid as it is a career about making money, so personal money is a likely significant motivation.


    Academics and lecturers are another interesting comparison.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 10th Jan 19, 7:35 PM
    • 11,057 Posts
    • 20,921 Thanks
    Pennywise
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 19, 7:35 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 19, 7:35 PM
    I believe you are also suffering from national pay scales, which even with London weighting make comparative salaries in London much less attractive. A doctor's salary in many parts of the country would be much higher compared to other graduates.


    I expect banking/finance jobs to be well paid as it is a career about making money, so personal money is a likely significant motivation.


    Academics and lecturers are another interesting comparison.
    Originally posted by theoretica
    I'm a qualified accountant (30+years of experience) and have never earned enough to pay higher rate tax. For the first couple of years, I didn't even earn enough to pay NIC. If you look at pay surveys for experienced/qualified accountants outside the main cities and you're looking at £40-£50k as average. London and other big financial cities like Manchester and Edinburgh pay a lot higher. So, yes, regional differences play a massive part. An experienced doctor or dentist out in the low pay regions, where average earnings are £20k or so, do very well indeed, but when they earn the same for living in London, they do indeed appear underpaid (just like other public sector workers).
    • Fireflyaway
    • By Fireflyaway 10th Jan 19, 7:53 PM
    • 2,165 Posts
    • 2,540 Thanks
    Fireflyaway
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 19, 7:53 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 19, 7:53 PM
    I suppose unless you go into private medicine; something like aesthetics you are not ever going to be paid well because the NHS is a not for profit organisation. Any of us who provide public services are unlikely to be paid mega bucks.
    I think child carers are underpaid. Childcare is expensive but nursery workers are low paid. Same with care staff in nursing homes. Cleaners too. If hospitals, schools and restaurants were filthy imagine the problems.
    Brings me On to job snobbery! The UK is funny around jobs. Some people are looked down on for doing certain jobs and some would rather claim benefits than do them.
    Focus on the reasons for entering medicine. You can make such a positive difference. You might not get rich but there will be satisfaction.
    • happyandcontented
    • By happyandcontented 10th Jan 19, 8:17 PM
    • 1,769 Posts
    • 3,749 Thanks
    happyandcontented
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 19, 8:17 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 19, 8:17 PM
    I agree the student loan interest rate is dreadful. My son, as a Chemical Engineer with a Masters, has similar debt. He has just secured a new role as a recent graduate and his salary is c£3ok with a welcome bonus and he is 21, he has a contract that guarantees him a 7.5% rise every year. So, working off that, I do think that you are underpaid on your basic wage and certainly considering all the shifts etc that you are required to work.

    Initially, my son fancied medicine but then chose ChemEng, but when he was considering medicine we advised he think about Dentistry over medicine due to the pay/hours issue.

    Good luck, you are doing a very worthwhile job, which is a vocation and I do think you should be compensated accordingly.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 10th Jan 19, 8:18 PM
    • 39,351 Posts
    • 36,340 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 19, 8:18 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 19, 8:18 PM
    Saying that, why do you have to pay interest on your loan?
    Originally posted by FBaby
    Isn't interest charged from the day you take it out on all student loans? And the OP, in common with many students, didn't realise interest would start from that date, rather than from graduation.

    so the OP probably isn't PAYING interest, exactly, but the amount owed will have increased year on year throughout their studies, with interest added on too.

    I think child carers are underpaid. Childcare is expensive but nursery workers are low paid. Same with care staff in nursing homes. Cleaners too. If hospitals, schools and restaurants were filthy imagine the problems.
    Originally posted by Fireflyaway
    Goodness yes, carers of all kinds terribly underpaid: my baby friends used to complain about the cost of childcare once they went back to work, but not one of us was prepared to be a childminder! And a local care company is offering a basic rate of less than £10 per hour for working with adults with huge needs. They say it's more for weekends and nights, training provided etc, but it's less than I'm paid for an office job.

    But if you want comparisons: I know someone who started as a new graduate on £30K+ in London, computing, 6+ years ago. He's since been headhunted and whatever he was then on doubled. And offered another payrise since. If DH had remained in computing, he'd probably be on similar figures, but that starting salary was almost as much as DH had been earning running a small charity, not in London but another city. I know who carried more responsibility, and it wasn't the young programmer ...

    So I'd say it was ever thus. And for what they do, junior doctors have never been well paid. And yes, the shift work is horrendous. And I guess you just didn't realise before you chose this profession what it would be like ... but I'd say your friends are also unrealistic in expecting you to be working similar hours and earning similar amounts to them!
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats, 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself, multiple poppies, 3 peony flowers, 4 butterflies ...
    Current projects: ready to decrease / decreasing on all parts of the mohair cardigan pattern! but moved onto wrist warmers for friends at Christmas ...
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 10th Jan 19, 8:41 PM
    • 3,013 Posts
    • 2,988 Thanks
    steampowered
    Your work roster sounds far, far easier than what I have always had to put up with. Though to be fair I do get paid more.

    A 40 hour work week is nothing. That is what, 8 hours per day? That's 9 - 5 !!!

    As someone working in finance in the city (think lawyer/financial adviser), I can tell you that 60-80 billable hour work weeks are common. That is only work that gets billed to clients- not hours spent on admin, training or lunch. I do sometimes work 80-100 hour weeks.

    The trainees and juniors I work with in the finance world get paid well but they do work 9am - 5am shifts when we have deals to close.

    I perhaps agree that junior doctors are underpaid. Especially in London, since the public sector does not seem to take account of regional differences in wages/living costs as much as the private sector does. But not by much. £46,500 is far in excess of the average salary and you earn more by being promoted.

    I think senior doctors are overpaid. GPs in particular. Being a GP seems like a pretty easy job to me.
    Last edited by steampowered; 10-01-2019 at 8:46 PM.
    • jonnygee2
    • By jonnygee2 10th Jan 19, 10:11 PM
    • 691 Posts
    • 696 Thanks
    jonnygee2
    The basic salary for FY1 Doctor is 26,614 for a 40 hour week
    That's about as high as starting salaries get. It's just a touch under the UK average salary which is not bad for year one.

    £46500 would put you in the top 15% of UK earners.

    It is only when you get to consultant level that the salary hits 75k and above.
    75k is inside the top 5% of earners. And you that's potentially just 11 years away? It seems okay!

    Am I right in thinking most of you in finance/consulting/IT/engineering jobs are paid over 45k a couple of years post 3 year degrees?
    I would imagine that only a handful of jobs would be that financially rewarding so quickly. Maybe if you are a very skilled recruiter you can earn that through bonuses. A talented software developer would probably leap to around that fairly quickly too.

    But in London you will find there is always someone earning more than you. You could earn £1m a year and still feel poor compared to your peers. Don't get obsessed with it, it'll ruin you!
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 11th Jan 19, 2:48 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    redlfc
    That's about as high as starting salaries get. It's just a touch under the UK average salary which is not bad for year one.

    £46500 would put you in the top 15% of UK earners.



    75k is inside the top 5% of earners. And you that's potentially just 11 years away? It seems okay!



    I would imagine that only a handful of jobs would be that financially rewarding so quickly. Maybe if you are a very skilled recruiter you can earn that through bonuses. A talented software developer would probably leap to around that fairly quickly too.

    But in London you will find there is always someone earning more than you. You could earn £1m a year and still feel poor compared to your peers. Don't get obsessed with it, it'll ruin you!
    Originally posted by jonnygee2
    yes but dont forget the degree is double the length of others. Also I dont agree the year 1 salary is high anyway - almost all graduate schemes have a higher starting salary and thats for 3 year courses - as a first year doctor youre already a few years behind everyone - with a much higher student loan to boot!
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 11th Jan 19, 2:51 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    redlfc
    Your work roster sounds far, far easier than what I have always had to put up with. Though to be fair I do get paid more.

    A 40 hour work week is nothing. That is what, 8 hours per day? That's 9 - 5 !!!

    As someone working in finance in the city (think lawyer/financial adviser), I can tell you that 60-80 billable hour work weeks are common. That is only work that gets billed to clients- not hours spent on admin, training or lunch. I do sometimes work 80-100 hour weeks.

    The trainees and juniors I work with in the finance world get paid well but they do work 9am - 5am shifts when we have deals to close.

    I perhaps agree that junior doctors are underpaid. Especially in London, since the public sector does not seem to take account of regional differences in wages/living costs as much as the private sector does. But not by much. £46,500 is far in excess of the average salary and you earn more by being promoted.

    I think senior doctors are overpaid. GPs in particular. Being a GP seems like a pretty easy job to me.
    Originally posted by steampowered
    but you are being paid well for those 60-80 hours - so whilst yes you are working long weeks youre paid exceptionally well to do so - the additional pay for out of hours work as a doctor is quite frankly shocking (it works out to around 12/13 pounds an hour)

    I used the 40 hour pay as a comparison salary wise as most jobs have 40 hour contracts

    Out of interest whats the starting salary post 3 year degree for people in your firm?
    • redlfc
    • By redlfc 11th Jan 19, 2:58 AM
    • 101 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    redlfc
    You can earn £45k 3 years post graduate but many dont. Many struggle to get a entry job and others might get to £45k but never get much higher.

    Studying Medicine is an investment. It should mean practicing in a job you're passionate about and gives you options. You could opt to work at gp and potenyilybwork part time, or do both NHS and private work and earn well over £100k.

    You have also many more options working abroad, evolving in research, teaching, armed force oe even in a cruise ship!

    The FY years are tough and it's normal you should ask yourself if you've done the right thing from a financial perspective. Saying that, why do you have to pay interest on your loan?
    Originally posted by FBaby
    You have to remember 3 years post degree is 6 years post degree for everyone else - and with a bigger student loan to boot! Also you cant earn 45k 3 years post degree anyway - youre maximum would be around 36k basic and then the way banding works you stay at 36k for another 3 years before the next salary rise.

    So thats a basic salary of 36k 11 years after starting university - its not that great

    I do agree with the opportunity point however in reality to do private work you have to be one of the best to apply and get accepted to a highly competetive field that has a scope for this sort of work - and moving abroad is not a realistic ambition for many due to family etc
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Jan 19, 9:00 AM
    • 6,358 Posts
    • 6,730 Thanks
    Comms69
    Don't forget the annual leave and then pension...
    • stator
    • By stator 11th Jan 19, 9:26 AM
    • 6,817 Posts
    • 4,603 Thanks
    stator
    Probably best not to think of it as a loan, think of it more as a middle rate of tax that you pay for most of your life
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 11th Jan 19, 6:49 PM
    • 81 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    John G Jones
    N
    Am I right in thinking most of you in finance/consulting/IT/engineering jobs are paid over 45k a couple of years post 3 year degrees? Im not saying this to try and devalue other careers - its more I feel that doctors are significantly underpaid when you consider the stress of job/unsociable hours/time spent to get to this position. I just want to know thoughts of people as it seems most of my friends are earning around 50k at the age of 25 with that likely to go up and up in a fairly short space of time.
    Originally posted by redlfc
    Pay isnít what it once was in the city, but itís still decent. We pay our interns and graduates about £60k a year probably rising to £100k on average three years in.

    On the other hand you get the respect of society and the satisfaction of making a direct and observable difference, which has to be worth a lot.
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 11th Jan 19, 7:21 PM
    • 81 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    John G Jones
    yes but dont forget the degree is double the length of others. Also I dont agree the year 1 salary is high anyway - almost all graduate schemes have a higher starting salary and thats for 3 year courses - as a first year doctor youre already a few years behind everyone - with a much higher student loan to boot!
    Originally posted by redlfc
    Why would this mean that someone should pay you more though? Your value is what you bring to your employer, not what you had to go through to get there.

    I wonder, given that you would have known the salaries before you went down this route, why youíve chosen medicine as a career.

    I started in the civil service on the equivalent of what today would be about £25k, and it would not have gone up much had I stayed. You are misjudging what others are earning, I think.
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 11th Jan 19, 7:56 PM
    • 11,057 Posts
    • 20,921 Thanks
    Pennywise
    Out of interest whats the starting salary post 3 year degree for people in your firm?
    Originally posted by redlfc
    Accountancy practices in my area take on trainee chartered accountants, with degrees, at between £12k-£18k p.a. After another 3 years of study/exams, upon qualifying as a chartered accountant, you're up to around £30-£36k. But we're in an area of run down Northern towns.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 11th Jan 19, 8:49 PM
    • 4,776 Posts
    • 5,383 Thanks
    robatwork
    The difference is you're doing a job that hopefully every right-thinking sentient person believes is just about the pinnacle of careers, important and worthwhile.

    I'm sure there's plenty of 25 year old Estate Agents earning twice what you are.

    But when you introduce yourself as a doctor as opposed to said EA, or city slicker, you instantly command respect. We all know a medical degree is only for the top pick of students, and I certainly don't begrudge a GP at age 40 earning 100k+. I know they've been through plenty of crap to get there.

    To answer your original question, teachers are often hugely overworked due to the profession haemorrhaging staff (see what I did there?) in some areas, especially urban.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

5,092Posts Today

10,863Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • This probably (who knows) makes it both more likely we'll remain in the EU via a 2nd referendum and more likely we'? https://t.co/GrNV48E1jS

  • Instant aftermath poll: After a defeat by over 230 votes on a flagship issue (Brexit) should Theresa May resign?

  • Wow losing by over 200. That's not defeat it's obliteration. Has there ever been a time before when a PM could lo? https://t.co/i0sVwL9P9P

  • Follow Martin