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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Luke
    • By MSE Luke 20th May 16, 3:40 PM
    • 287Posts
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    MSE Luke
    Quote, misquotes & the truth about my appearance in the ‘Stronger In Europe’ leaflet
    • #1
    • 20th May 16, 3:40 PM
    Quote, misquotes & the truth about my appearance in the ‘Stronger In Europe’ leaflet 20th May 16 at 3:40 PM
    This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.





    Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.
Page 4
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 25th Sep 18, 9:21 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    Second Referendum ... Socialists Must Say No!
    Often we are chastised by the pro EU 'left' for our 'unholy alliances' with right wing opponents of the European Union
    In reality of course no such alliance exists. The divide between those who want to remain in the EU and those who do not rests only in their attitude to the possibilities of political change. While among those who want 'out' there are very different dreams, what is not shared with 'remain' is the willingness to 'accept' that the direction of our political life is set, determined by an omnipotent political class
    'Remain' is the default position of the political 'centre', marking the 'moderate' orthodoxy, both conservative and progressive, which sees, in the imposition of its will on the rest of the world, the triumph of 'democracy'
    Our 'moderate' politicians, the sensible people who wage wars to destroy nations and change governments, are working at 'home' to remove the democratically elected President of the USA, replace the democratically elected leader of the British Labour Party and reverse the result of a referendum on the EU because it failed to rubber stamp the already established arrangement
    Back the so called 'people's vote' Jeremy and in the end it will be the people not the warmongers who will bring you down!
    Last edited by BernardM; 25-09-2018 at 9:23 PM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 26th Sep 18, 9:46 AM
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    JimmyTheWig
    I'm torn on that one, BernardM.
    The first vote was so divisive. I don't want to go through that again.
    But, equally, I don't want Theresa May pushing through a Brexit that people didn't vote for.

    Referendum: Who wants a hot drink?
    People: Yes, go on then.
    Theresa May: I've made you all tea. You said you wanted it. Now drink it.
    People: Um, we wanted coffee...
    Last edited by JimmyTheWig; 28-09-2018 at 8:40 AM.
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 27th Sep 18, 1:05 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    Corbyn’s Embrace of a Customs Union is a Sell Out to the Labour Right!
    Corbyn's Embrace of a Customs Union is a Sell Out to the Labour Right!
    Last edited by BernardM; 27-09-2018 at 2:26 PM.

    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 27th Sep 18, 2:42 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/


    https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/most-labour-mps-represent-a-constituency-that-voted-leave-36f13210f5c6


    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/every-leave-constituency-with-a-remain-mp/

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 27th Sep 18, 3:25 PM
    • 11,885 Posts
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    JimmyTheWig
    Again, BernardM, you are ignoring me and just posting links. This is supposed to be a forum. For discussion.
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 27th Sep 18, 7:03 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    So whose ignoring who?


    You have never really responded with anything much worth responding about.

    You didn't even respond here, when it mattered, about why the article forum link was removed in the run up to the big referenda vote.


    Ignored very much on that one, but you did respond about my posts being removed from the discussion and with a strange remark about this not being a place to share links or information. Daft that, when every post has a Facebook and Twitter link included in it for precisely that.

    This Forum thread was clearly removed and could not be found, on the article to forum thread weeks before the vote, soon after I started posting, coincidently.
    Last edited by BernardM; 28-09-2018 at 2:52 AM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 28th Sep 18, 8:53 AM
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    JimmyTheWig
    You have never really responded with anything much worth responding about.
    Originally posted by BernardM
    Fair enough.

    You didn't even respond here, when it mattered, about why the article forum link was removed in the run up to the big referenda vote.
    ...
    This Forum thread was clearly removed and could not be found, on the article to forum thread weeks before the vote, soon after I started posting, coincidently.
    I would have got here from the article when it was first posted, but after that would have come straight here. So I probably wouldn't have noticed.

    Ignored very much on that one, but you did respond about my posts being removed from the discussion and with a strange remark about this not being a place to share links or information. Daft that, when every post has a Facebook and Twitter link included in it for precisely that.
    I'll try to explain my point...
    The Facebook and Twitter links on this site are to share stuff written here on those other platforms. Now, I would expect if you did that that it would start a discussion on those platforms about what you had shared.
    Likewise, I see no problem with sharing links to other sites on this forum. But I see doing that as being a starting point for a discussion. You've posted so many times on this thread, but we don't really know what _you_ think about any of it. And you don't know what anyone else thinks about any of it.
    Are you not interested to know what other people think? Are you not interested in trying to change their opinion where it differs from your own? (Or even changing your own opinion if they bring up points that you hadn't considered?)
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 28th Sep 18, 10:20 AM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    You didn't believe people would be clicking my links, earlier in the thread so you clearly weren't that interested in fairness when I posted them, so why so interested in my personal thoughts now?


    I am, just like you, posting ideas and opinions that I know for a fact are never given the light of day on mainstream for people to see and read/listen and make your own mind up obviously.

    I am not really trying to change your mind just to actually see/here it.

    Last nights Question Time was again imbalanced on the subject and a panel of 5.

    2 leave 3 remain.

    The 2 Leave panelists, again clearly mostly always only on the political right, still, by a bit of fortune got 1 remain to convey that the Leave referenda should be honoured.

    Thats the BBC way of being fair I guess.
    Last edited by BernardM; 28-09-2018 at 12:55 PM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 28th Sep 18, 1:25 PM
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    JimmyTheWig
    You didn't believe people would be clicking my links, earlier in the thread so you clearly weren't that interested in fairness when I posted them, so why so interested in my personal thoughts now?


    I am, just like you, posting ideas and opinions that I know for a fact are never given the light of day on mainstream for people to see and read/listen and make your own mind up obviously.

    I am not really trying to change your mind just to actually see/here it.
    Originally posted by BernardM
    I don't see how my opinion of whether people were clicking your links meant I wasn't interested in fairness. Quite the opposite - my point was that by entering into discussion with people you're more likely to get them to click and read what you've shared.
    I've always been interested in your personal thoughts, that's what these discussions are designed to be about.

    I watched Question Time for the first time in ages last night. Was ever so disappointed in the panel and the audience make-up. It's almost like they tried hard to ensure they had a broad range of people who didn't like Corbyn...
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 30th Sep 18, 9:21 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    I meant "in all fairness" not you being very unfair Jimmy. I maybe should have been clearer in post 64, this thread is getting to look bit spammy I guess.



    I thought it was just self explanatory from my previous post, as back up material, for what Arthur said about Labour’s leadership ignoring 60 per cent of Labour Constituencies that voted to leave the EU.

    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 25th Jan 19, 4:16 AM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    Climbing the greasy pole
    Climbing the greasy pole, John McDonnell is clearly not silent but hard working for the common interest of the establishment and all those in Parliament who voted down a No Deal Brexit the equivalent of the referendum vote.

    He has clearly abandoned the vote of 17 million people, this act of treachery by the Labour Party Leaders that campaign with Unions that betray all of us, continue a lie that they honour the referendum.

    This traitor, is still, clearly, calling to remain in the EU. THE VOTE WAS DECIDED FOR A GENERATION.

    THE REFERENDUM WAS THE PEOPLES VOTE.

    REMOVE ALL THOSE WHO VOTED TO PREVENT A NO DEAL BREXIT ON THE 10TH JANUARY 2019.

    REMOVE ALL REMAIN MPS THAT ARE PROVEN LIARS AND TRAITORS TO THE UK VOTE.

    THE ELECTION, THEY KEEP CALLING FOR, IS ANOTHER EXCELLENT OPPORTUNITY OF REMOVING THEM AND ALL MPS PREVENTING US LEAVING THE EU.

    The ruling class have used and will continue to use every means including a media which has sought to overturn the decision of the British people in the 2016 Referendum.


    The ruling class and the EU will demand another referendum and another until they get the result they want.


    Why aren't the Labour Party leadership now leading the fight for a (NO DEAL) exit from this rotten bureaucratic EU if they honour it.
    Last edited by BernardM; 11-09-2019 at 11:18 PM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 25th Jan 19, 8:21 AM
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    JimmyTheWig
    The point is, people didn't vote for a No Deal Brexit, so pushing one on the people isn't right. People voted for Brexit, but that means vastly different things for different people.
    The only thing this government has achieved in their negotiations is a settlement that suits pretty much no-one.
    Parliament seem unable to agree a plan. But they don't even seem able to agree that they are unable to do this and so call a general election.
    Which means I think it needs to go to the people.

    Wording would obviously need to be considered, but I think it should be along these lines.

    How should the Brexit situation be resolved?
    * Leave without a deal.
    * Leave on the basis of the PM's deal.
    * Remain in the EU.
    * Have a General Election.

    Voting should be using the AV system, so you put down your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th choice. The option that receives the fewest first choice votes gets eliminated and the votes for them get split according to their second preferences. And again so you are left with a clear winner.
    The result of this referendum should be unambiguous and should be binding on the government.
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 10th Sep 19, 4:25 AM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    Traitor MPs voted
    SICK OF LIES!

    SICK OF IT!!

    LEAVERS ARE JUST AS SICK OF HOW MANY VOTED TO JOIN THE EU IN 2016.


    Tonight traitor MPs took another step to overturn it, what you are witnessing is the continuance of the greatest counter attack on democracy in our lifetime.

    London remain voters still don’t see that their great city as a financial centre and the Bank of England will need to be eliminated as a competitor of the New York banks and Wall Street if they ignore the vote and rejoin the EU.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 11th Sep 19, 12:02 PM
    • 11,885 Posts
    • 11,412 Thanks
    JimmyTheWig
    I don't get what you're saying, I'm afraid.
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 11th Sep 19, 10:51 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    Ok, 'get' this or this, instead. They have done a nice job explaining things. I agree lock, stock, and barrel. Perhaps we will need to start using them if a democratic vote is ignored for much longer.
    Last edited by BernardM; 11-09-2019 at 11:24 PM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 12th Sep 19, 8:40 AM
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    JimmyTheWig
    Ok, I get what you're saying.
    I think this is putting far too much emphasis on leaving the EU. We should leave, but not at any cost. It strikes me that this is saying we should support Boris Johnson over Emily Thornberry. I don't believe for one minute that is what Scargill thinks, but it is what it is sounding like here.
    Also, are they implying that immigration is a bad thing? I wasn't impressed with that paragraph!
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 16th Sep 19, 12:08 AM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    No, the economic migration is very bad.

    You said 'we should leave', but you still prefer to support Porkie-pie lie Emily who wants to go back into and remain in the EU who somehow claims will honour the vote. Very impressive.
    Last edited by BernardM; 16-09-2019 at 1:26 AM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 17th Sep 19, 3:04 PM
    • 11,885 Posts
    • 11,412 Thanks
    JimmyTheWig
    No, the economic migration is very bad.
    Originally posted by BernardM
    So you think that where someone is born should determine where they are allowed to work?
    What, so we can have "British jobs for British workers"? Hmmm.

    You said 'we should leave', but you still prefer to support Porkie-pie lie Emily who wants to go back into and remain in the EU who somehow claims will honour the vote. Very impressive.
    My point is that I'd rather stay in than have a Tory Brexit, designed to increase racism and cut workers rights. There's more to whether I support an MP than whether they fit in a category of "Leave" or "Remain" in a vote that should never have taken place.
    • BernardM
    • By BernardM 17th Sep 19, 9:56 PM
    • 390 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    BernardM
    Know When to Let Go of What No Longer Serves You
    So you do still want to remain in the EU Jimmy, but you do also want us to honour referendum to leave. Ok.

    I don’t understand why you only fear racism now just from the result of a vote or for our workers rights, if the Brexit vote is delivered, by a new election winning Tory government.


    I fear remaining in an EU that serves Washington and the One Percent.

    It serves no one else. The EU is a murderer of sovereignty and peoples. The intent is for the British, French, Germans, Italians, Greeks, Spanish, and all the rest to disappear as peoples. Brexit is the last chance to defeat this hidden agenda.


    You also feel that as I agree economic migration is very bad, that you also think that I feel where someone is born should always determine where they also should work or live.

    A sensible and fair immigration policy should give priority to asylum seekers, citizens of Commonwealth countries and countries previously “ruled” by Britain limited to the number of people emigrating from Britain each year.

    The government and the media continue to brainwash the people of Britain by blaming the massive increase in people coming into Britain as immigrants including people who are seeking asylum from persecution in their own land. There is a fundamental difference between immigration and economic migration from countries who are members of the European Union. The facts dispel this continuing misinformation.



    I thought you had read and understood previous posts on this.
    Last edited by BernardM; 17-09-2019 at 11:35 PM.

    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 18th Sep 19, 12:23 PM
    • 11,885 Posts
    • 11,412 Thanks
    JimmyTheWig
    So you do still want to remain in the EU Jimmy, but you do also want us to honour referendum to leave. Ok.
    Originally posted by BernardM
    No, I want to leave. Just not at any cost.
    Leave or Remain is not the most important question, which is why I'd support Emily Thornberry over Boris Johnson.


    You also feel that as I agree economic migration is very bad, that you also think that I feel where someone is born should always determine where they also should work or live.

    A sensible and fair immigration policy should give priority to asylum seekers, citizens of Commonwealth countries and countries previously “ruled” by Britain limited to the number of people emigrating from Britain each year.
    Obviously if immigration needs to be limited it should be prioritised for those who need it most. But I question why it needs to be limited in a free market economy, and why it would be limited to country of birth in a planned economy.
    Why should someone born in Newcastle be entitled to live and work in Dover in preference to someone born in Calais?
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