Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • MightyWhitey
    • By MightyWhitey 9th Sep 19, 7:41 PM
    • 15Posts
    • 9Thanks
    MightyWhitey
    Over 60 resident relative. How to avoid losing the family home to care home fees
    • #1
    • 9th Sep 19, 7:41 PM
    Over 60 resident relative. How to avoid losing the family home to care home fees 9th Sep 19 at 7:41 PM
    My Mother is 85, owns her own home and wants to avoid selling the family home to fund her care, to the local council..

    Since I am over 60, I am looking to move into her home as my main residence, ahead of any move by her into care to comply with rules I have seen, stating that the property cannot be taken with a dependent in it ( subject to some caveats in the rules ).

    So i rang the council assessment team, and asked how long before she goes into care can i be considered to be a resident for exclusion purpose. They said "it depends", "it"s complex", "they cannot tell me the guidelines on that, that they work to".

    Does anybody know?
Page 5
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 14th Sep 19, 8:32 PM
    • 7,012 Posts
    • 8,225 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    More to the point he's happy for his mum to go into whatever squalid home the council dumps her in to ensure that.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Bang on, anyone staying put in their parents home to protect their inheritance at the cost of that parent being placed in an over my dead body care home is morally bankrupt.
    • fifeken
    • By fifeken 15th Sep 19, 1:37 PM
    • 2,406 Posts
    • 1,251 Thanks
    fifeken
    I suspect some would say theyíd paid in all their lives so are entitled to take their entitlements.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    The OP is trying to take a bit more than any entitlement, he's proposing lowering his mum's standard of care and taking her house for himself.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 15th Sep 19, 1:41 PM
    • 31,371 Posts
    • 19,450 Thanks
    xylophone
    The OP is trying to take a bit more than any entitlement, he's proposing lowering his mum's standard of care and taking her house for himself.
    To be fair to the OP, mother seems to have instigated the conversation?

    My Mother is 85, owns her own home and wants to avoid selling the family home to fund her care, to the local council..
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 15th Sep 19, 2:11 PM
    • 7,012 Posts
    • 8,225 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    To be fair to the OP, mother seems to have instigated the conversation?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    True, but it seems to be the OPs idea to move in with her, and they seem to be going to great lengths to check whether their scheme will work or not.

    Still waiting for a reply about whether they already own a home or not.
    Last edited by Keep pedalling; 15-09-2019 at 2:17 PM.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 15th Sep 19, 2:51 PM
    • 31,371 Posts
    • 19,450 Thanks
    xylophone
    Still waiting for a reply about whether they already own a home or not.
    Well....post 36

    no other property in my name [tick]
    - no other place to live [ tick ; divorced]
    He also says that he needs to be close to his mother for care purposes - given the circumstances he describes however, one wonders why he hadn't moved in earlier?
    Last edited by xylophone; 15-09-2019 at 6:11 PM. Reason: typo
    • Bogof_Babe
    • By Bogof_Babe 15th Sep 19, 4:09 PM
    • 10,322 Posts
    • 16,983 Thanks
    Bogof_Babe
    Would the OP be happy living under the same roof as his mother if she remains active for another ten years or more? I hope he wouldn't regret his decision, or wish to hasten her departure into care!
    I haven't bogged off yet, and I ain't no babe


    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 15th Sep 19, 6:01 PM
    • 7,012 Posts
    • 8,225 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    Well....post 36



    He also says that he needs to be close to his mother for care purposes - given the circumstances he describes however, one wonders whay he hadn't moved in earlier?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    Apologies I missed that post.

    Moving in to provide care and support is admirable and in the long term is likely to delay or avoid totally her ever needing residential care. Just taking up residence to protect your inheritance is a whole different ball game.
    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 15th Sep 19, 6:56 PM
    • 9,219 Posts
    • 21,424 Thanks
    enthusiasticsaver
    I am wondering how many people actually realise there is a massive difference in some areas between a council run residential care home and a private care home. I have had experience of both with my MIL having to go into council run care facilities (no assets or private pension to speak of) and my stepfather going into a private residential care home after a long hospital stay and actually getting sufficiently better to come home and live with my mum again. Vast difference in quality of surroundings, care and staffing numbers. You also get to choose the area so the person can stay in their familiar area and get visitors rather than being pushed off into anywhere the council deems good enough.

    I certainly will expect my children to use our assets (house included) to pay for our residential care should we need it. We have helped them buy houses, go to university, go on holidays etc etc and any spare money can go to them but if we need it for care we will use it.
    Early retired in December 2017

    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Mortgages and Endowments, Banking and Budgeting boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com. Pease remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bogof_Babe
    • By Bogof_Babe 15th Sep 19, 7:17 PM
    • 10,322 Posts
    • 16,983 Thanks
    Bogof_Babe
    My mum was self funding and received exactly the same care and had the same type of room etc. as the council funded residents. It was a very nice place, everyone seemed very happy there and the meals were lovely. Lots of activities, and a general air of being a home not just a care home.
    I haven't bogged off yet, and I ain't no babe


    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 15th Sep 19, 8:18 PM
    • 9,219 Posts
    • 21,424 Thanks
    enthusiasticsaver
    My mum was self funding and received exactly the same care and had the same type of room etc. as the council funded residents. It was a very nice place, everyone seemed very happy there and the meals were lovely. Lots of activities, and a general air of being a home not just a care home.
    Originally posted by Bogof_Babe
    Then the council funded residents were lucky and in my experience that is certainly not the case for the elderly in my area (south west with a large elderly population). We had to move my MIL up to the Midlands where there was a better choice of council care homes and quality of residential care as the council funded homes in the south west in our town were awful. There were other reasons of course in that my BIL had just retired so had more time than us who were still working and he lived up there so we did not just dump her up there away from everyone. She still would have preferred to stay in Cornwall though.

    The quality of elderly residential care homes is very patchy across the country. The thing is though as your mum was self funded she had a choice. For those who are not self funded where they get put is a lottery.
    Early retired in December 2017

    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Mortgages and Endowments, Banking and Budgeting boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com. Pease remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • zagubov
    • By zagubov 15th Sep 19, 11:33 PM
    • 16,494 Posts
    • 134,312 Thanks
    zagubov
    I've worked in old people's homes which I would be happy to be a resident in when old.

    But I would also agree that this country does not regulate elderly care sufficiently. We're good at delivering healthcare and need to diversify into social care.
    There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
    • Bogof_Babe
    • By Bogof_Babe 16th Sep 19, 8:36 AM
    • 10,322 Posts
    • 16,983 Thanks
    Bogof_Babe

    The quality of elderly residential care homes is very patchy across the country. The thing is though as your mum was self funded she had a choice. For those who are not self funded where they get put is a lottery.
    Originally posted by enthusiasticsaver
    Actually with mum it boiled down to finding somewhere that had a vacant place, as many of them were full or had closed down. Sadly several more have closed down since she passed away in 2011 (this is the North West, specifically Merseyside) so I imagine there is a looming if not present crisis these days.

    As for inspection and standards, don't the CQC still operate? Once when we were visiting mum there was a surprise inspection, including asking the visitors as well as the residents about the standard of care they were receiving.
    I haven't bogged off yet, and I ain't no babe


    • MightyWhitey
    • By MightyWhitey 18th Sep 19, 7:14 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MightyWhitey
    I've taken the feedback related to the OP, and have emailed the financial assessments team of the council who deal with this, with my circumstances. My hope is that they can issue an advice based on that without the need to involve a solicitor at this stage. If there are any objections it may start to frame things better.

    I'll provide some details to help others if they are in similar circumstances.
    Originally posted by MightyWhitey
    I received a reply from a senior member of the county council financial assessments team stating:

    "the information you have gathered so far and your circumstances, leads to the conclusion that the property may be disregarded".

    In a clarifying email, it was stated that the circumstances described would need to be "evidenced".

    I've got some comfort from this, though everything depends on what happens at the time, and if circumstances change.

    Perhaps the key takeaway from this exercise is to ensure folks put their questions in writing to council and get the same in reply, which they appear to do if you get through to the financial assessments team members. Initially I appear to have spoke with an unqualified council person which set my concerns in motion.

    Hopefully this thread helps others in similar circumstances.
    Last edited by MightyWhitey; 18-09-2019 at 7:16 AM.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 18th Sep 19, 9:23 AM
    • 6,758 Posts
    • 10,953 Thanks
    Malthusian
    My mum was self funding and received exactly the same care and had the same type of room etc. as the council funded residents.
    Originally posted by Bogof_Babe
    And plenty of social housing is good quality with lovely salt-of-the-earth neighbours. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to try to give all your money to your children and spend the rest of your life being housed by the Government. There is literally no difference.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 18th Sep 19, 9:59 AM
    • 25,441 Posts
    • 13,643 Thanks
    lisyloo
    As for inspection and standards, don't the CQC still operate? Once when we were visiting mum there was a surprise inspection, including asking the visitors as well as the residents about the standard of care they were receiving.
    Originally posted by Bogof_Babe
    CQC does operate.
    When we were looking we were told to take it with a pinch of salt.
    For example they might have a bad mark for management, but the manager has since changed.
    So anything could have changed since the date of the CQC report unless itís very recent.

    We did still use it but bore in mind that dated reports might no longer be true.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 18th Sep 19, 10:01 AM
    • 25,441 Posts
    • 13,643 Thanks
    lisyloo
    I am wondering how many people actually realise there is a massive difference in some areas between a council run residential care home and a private care home.
    Originally posted by enthusiasticsaver
    I donít think many people are aware of the standards, only those whoíve had reason to look.
    The LA also wanted to split up my MiL and FIL after 60 years of marriage when a place was available in the same home (where MiL was already funded).
    I donít think people realise that they might be split up or away from family either.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 18th Sep 19, 10:04 AM
    • 25,441 Posts
    • 13,643 Thanks
    lisyloo
    The OP is trying to take a bit more than any entitlement, he's proposing lowering his mum's standard of care and taking her house for himself.
    Originally posted by fifeken
    Absolutely.
    My point was that many people think they are entitled because they paid in and in many cases (around 60%) they are net takers.

    Iím glad my MiL has nursing available 24/7 and is in a nice place.
    Inheritance isnít an entitlement anyway but certainly not whilst they are still alive.
    • Spreadsheetman
    • By Spreadsheetman 18th Sep 19, 10:42 AM
    • 290 Posts
    • 351 Thanks
    Spreadsheetman
    CQC does operate.
    When we were looking we were told to take it with a pinch of salt.
    For example they might have a bad mark for management, but the manager has since changed.
    So anything could have changed since the date of the CQC report unless itís very recent.

    We did still use it but bore in mind that dated reports might no longer be true.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    There was a snap unannounced CQC inspection in the short period that my Father was in a home. They interviewed Dad and me and certainly asked lots of quite probing questions.

    There is also the question of what the reports are actually saying, just looking at the headlines isn't sufficient to have a real idea of what a home is like. There can be marks lost for management process etc. which can reduce the overall rating, but the home can still be very friendly, caring and safe.
    • woolly_wombat
    • By woolly_wombat 30th Sep 19, 7:59 AM
    • 662 Posts
    • 468 Thanks
    woolly_wombat
    My mum was self funding and received exactly the same care and had the same type of room etc. as the council funded residents. It was a very nice place, everyone seemed very happy there and the meals were lovely. Lots of activities, and a general air of being a home not just a care home.
    Originally posted by Bogof_Babe
    My mum received NHS continuing healthcare in a nursing home alongside self funding residents.

    The standard of care was wonderful, indeed it was far better than the care she received in the NHS hospital from which she was transferred. The manager was a proper old style hospital matron.

    It is a complete fallacy to suggest that publicly funded care is worse than privately funded care.

    My sister and I visited several homes. One of them was superficially very posh, i.e. smart magazines on the coffee table in entrance lobby, but we were prevented from interacting with any of the residents even when a very well spoken elderly man tried to engage us in conversation. The clincher was when the manager mentioned her previous employment at a senior level in the NHS hospital in which mum had received inadequate care following a severe stroke. Our smiles remained fixed but we beat a hasty retreat.

    Don't be taken in by superficial niceties.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 30th Sep 19, 9:05 AM
    • 6,758 Posts
    • 10,953 Thanks
    Malthusian
    My mum received NHS continuing healthcare in a nursing home alongside self funding residents.
    Originally posted by woolly_wombat
    People eligible for NHS continuing care are an entirely separate issue from people who aren't eligible for continuing care but aren't able to live wholly independently either. If they have their own money they have to pay for that care for the same reason they have to pay for their own food, water and shelter.

    If you become eligible for NHS continuing care then you may no longer have a money issue, but that isn't a practical solution to any problem because you can't make yourself eligible for NHS continuing care without bashing your head against the wall a few times or some other kind of highly inadvisable DIY neurosurgery.

    The standard of care was wonderful, indeed it was far better than the care she received in the NHS hospital from which she was transferred.
    As you would expect as NHS hospitals are designed to cure the sick, not provide elderly care.

    It is a complete fallacy to suggest that publicly funded care is worse than privately funded care.
    Sometimes it isn't. Often it is. If you have your own resources you get a choice. If you don't you don't.

    Social housing is often of equal or better quality than private rental but it doesn't mean it's a good idea to try to give away all your possessions (in such a way that deliberate deprivation doesn't apply) and then spend the rest of your life in wherever the council chooses to house you.

    My sister and I visited several homes. One of them was superficially very posh, i.e. smart magazines on the coffee table in entrance lobby, but we were prevented from interacting with any of the residents even when a very well spoken elderly man tried to engage us in conversation. The clincher was when the manager mentioned her previous employment at a senior level in the NHS hospital in which mum had received inadequate care following a severe stroke. Our smiles remained fixed but we beat a hasty retreat.
    If your mum was being paid for by the taxpayer and the LA wanted to put her in a home run by someone who formerly administered a failing hospital, then you wouldn't have had the option of beating a retreat. Not without very focused and determined advocacy.

    Private care homes are often crap in the same way that private rentals and owner-occupied homes are often crap. The point of having money is not that everything you have to pay for is brilliant, the point of having money is that you can choose. If you have no money you have no choice, all you have is luck.

    The fundamental issue is that there is no reason why somebody who has spent their entire life working to give themselves a choice should suddenly decide to give their money away and trust to luck.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

440Posts Today

5,160Users online

Martin's Twitter