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  • FIRST POST
    • ALLSOP
    • By ALLSOP 1st Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 5Thanks
    ALLSOP
    PCN Letter from Napier Parking and BW Legal
    • #1
    • 1st Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    PCN Letter from Napier Parking and BW Legal 1st Mar 18 at 2:08 PM
    Hello, I'm looking for some advice in dealing with a PCN from Napier Parking and their legal team BW Legal. I'm in London UK

    Background Info
    I had received a £90 PCN from Napier Parking 2 years ago on 11/03/2016 for my previous car (sold 25/12/2016). Reason for issue: parking or waiting on roadway or on verge/footpath. There was only 1 small sign hidden away behind the open gate.

    I ignored all the letters, including last debt collector letter on 05/12/2016. Then 2 years later on 19/01/2018 I get this letter from BW Legal, their legal team. They are demanding the £90 PCN and £60 legal cost, a total of £150.

    I have made a formal request for all the information / documents as required by the pre-action protocol for debt claims; I have sent this letter below on 04/02/2018:


    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 19th January 2018. Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2). Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure to comply to the attention of the court, and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October 2017 and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and un-evidenced 'Letter Before Claim'; in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.
    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. An explanation of the cause of action;
    2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper;
    3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012;
    4. What the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated;
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract;
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details;
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 "establishing yourself as the creditor";
    8. A plan showing where any signs were displayed;
    9. Details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed);
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added;
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and Reply Form;

    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) - Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

    Yours faithfully
    I have received a reply letter from BW Legal on 19/02/2018. They have failed to provide me with all the information / documents I requested, as they have just attached the original PCN with the date and time of incident, reason for issue, and photographic evidence of car and sign.

    Question: Do I ignore them? As they have not provided me with all the information I asked for in my letter.
    If I reply, what do I put in reply letter and how can I get them to cancel PCN?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards,
    ALLSOP
    Last edited by ALLSOP; 01-03-2018 at 2:11 PM.
Page 1
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 1st Mar 18, 2:55 PM
    • 8,493 Posts
    • 11,206 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #2
    • 1st Mar 18, 2:55 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Mar 18, 2:55 PM

    I have received a reply letter from BW Legal on 19/02/2018. They have failed to provide me with all the information / documents I requested, as they have just attached the original PCN with the date and time of incident, reason for issue, and photographic evidence of car and sign.

    Question: Do I ignore them? As they have not provided me with all the information I asked for in my letter.
    If I reply, what do I put in reply letter and how can I get them to cancel PCN?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards,
    ALLSOP
    Originally posted by ALLSOP
    Such an ignorant response from them.

    Start again, that you require a full answer to your letter
    (enclose a copy)

    State, that until you receive a full answer you are not
    able to respond in a correct manner and failure by
    BWLegal to provide this will be brought to the attention
    of the court.
    BWLegal MUST comply with the new procedure.

    It is because companies like BWLegal have run rough shod
    over people that has attracted the wrath of government
    ministers and hence the new members bill.
    Plus one MP referring BWLegal to the SRA.

    Further, it is companies like BWLegal who will end up
    destroying the whole parking industry

    You want transparency and that is what the courts want
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • ALLSOP
    • By ALLSOP 1st Mar 18, 5:28 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ALLSOP
    • #3
    • 1st Mar 18, 5:28 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Mar 18, 5:28 PM
    Such an ignorant response from them.

    Start again, that you require a full answer to your letter
    (enclose a copy)

    State, that until you receive a full answer you are not
    able to respond in a correct manner and failure by
    BWLegal to provide this will be brought to the attention
    of the court.
    BWLegal MUST comply with the new procedure.
    Thanks for reply Beamerguy, I have written draft letter below, what you think?
    Draft Letter

    1st March 2018

    Reference: XXXXXXXXXXXX

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am in receipt of your letter dated 20 February 2018, in response to my formal request letter. Your client has failed to provide me with all the information / documents requested in my previous letter.

    I have attached a copy of my formal request letter. Your client must comply with the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol for debt claims.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided me with all the information requested in my letter, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim. I reserve the right to draw any failure to comply to the attention of the court, and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Do I give details as to what information they have not provided, or just attach copy of previous letter?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 1st Mar 18, 7:23 PM
    • 8,493 Posts
    • 11,206 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #4
    • 1st Mar 18, 7:23 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Mar 18, 7:23 PM
    Thanks for reply Beamerguy, I have written draft letter below, what you think?


    Do I give details as to what information they have not provided, or just attach copy of previous letter?
    Originally posted by ALLSOP
    I assume BWLegal can read (we do wonder though)

    They already know what information they have not provided,
    so let them work it out ...... see how they reply this time

    No point in repeating yourself.
    They must behave themselves
    Last edited by beamerguy; 01-03-2018 at 7:30 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Mar 18, 7:37 PM
    • 61,745 Posts
    • 74,641 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 1st Mar 18, 7:37 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Mar 18, 7:37 PM
    Do I give details as to what information they have not provided, or just attach copy of previous letter?
    Either, whatever is harder for them! Hopefully you are emailing them, not wasting stamps?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • unhappycustomer82
    • By unhappycustomer82 2nd Mar 18, 11:47 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    unhappycustomer82
    • #6
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:47 AM
    • #6
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:47 AM
    Hi Beamer guy and anyone else with superior knowledge like ALLSOP I have recently been threatened with ccj’s and court action due to an unwarranted unpaid ticket issued by excel parking cowboys on 28/11/17 at the peel centre car park which i recently learned to my horror is free for 30 mins. I shopped for 49 mins in the pet store on the car park. As my car was being repaired I was in a hire car after returning the car the company issued me the first parking charge subsequently more followed I ignored them after some questionable guidance, culminating in £160 new charge plus threats of court. To summarise the car park is poorly signed on my return to investigate plus the £100 charge for 19 min over sight seems excessive please help!
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 2nd Mar 18, 11:56 AM
    • 8,887 Posts
    • 9,253 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #7
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:56 AM
    • #7
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:56 AM
    Please don't hijack someone else's thread - you need to start by reading the Newbies Sticky then start your own..!
    • unhappycustomer82
    • By unhappycustomer82 2nd Mar 18, 12:57 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    unhappycustomer82
    • #8
    • 2nd Mar 18, 12:57 PM
    • #8
    • 2nd Mar 18, 12:57 PM
    Sorry my first post I tried creating my own thread wasn’t sure how thought someone may help not take offence.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Mar 18, 1:03 PM
    • 4,254 Posts
    • 5,592 Thanks
    waamo
    • #9
    • 2nd Mar 18, 1:03 PM
    • #9
    • 2nd Mar 18, 1:03 PM
    Newbies thread and in it are instructions on how to create a thread

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
    This space for hire.
    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 2nd Mar 18, 1:08 PM
    • 8,452 Posts
    • 32,918 Thanks
    ampersand
    uc82 -

    Look down the left-hand blue-lettered headings column.

    You're looking for Motoring. A moment ago, it looked like this:
    on


    914,425 Motoring (602 Viewing)
    A special section for all things cars and motoring
    Sub-boards: Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
    ############

    Now, click on that sub-board and post your problem.

    Aaah, but don't do so until you have thoroughly read the NEWBIES THREADS, as Quentin steadily and politely advises.

    ############
    Apologies waamo - ), mine is the slo-mo snowbound version.
    Last edited by ampersand; 02-03-2018 at 1:37 PM.
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT&BUDGET HELP:01274 760720, freephone0800 328 0006
    'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
    Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
    ***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
    'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


    • ALLSOP
    • By ALLSOP 9th Apr 18, 4:01 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ALLSOP
    PCN Letters from BWLegal and Napier Parking
    Background Info
    I had received a £90 PCN from Napier Parking 2 years ago on 11/03/2016 for my previous car. Reason for issue: parking or waiting on roadway or on verge/footpath.

    I ignored all the letters, including last debt collector letter on 05/12/2016. Then 2 years later on 19/01/2018 I get this letter from BW Legal, their legal team. They are demanding the £90 PCN and £60 legal cost, a total of £150. I have made a formal request for all the information / documents as required by the pre-action protocol for debt claims; I have sent this letter below:
    Sir/Madam,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 19th January 2018. Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2). Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure to comply to the attention of the court, and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October 2017 and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and un-evidenced 'Letter Before Claim'; in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol. I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. An explanation of the cause of action;
    2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper;
    3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012;
    4. What the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated;
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract;
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details;
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 "establishing yourself as the creditor";
    8. A plan showing where any signs were displayed;
    9. Details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed);
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added;
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and Reply Form;

    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) - Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

    Yours faithfully
    I have received a reply letter from BW Legal on 19/02/2018. They have failed to provide me with all the information / documents I requested, as they have just attached the original PCN with the date and time of incident, reason for issue, and photographic evidence of car and sign.

    I Sent the Following Email Reply:
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am in receipt of your letter dated 19 February 2018, in response to my formal request letter. Your client has failed to provide me with all the information / documents requested in my previous letter.

    I have attached a copy of my formal request letter. Your client must comply with the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol for debt claims.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided me with all the information requested in my letter, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim, I reserve the right to draw any failure to comply to the attention of the court, and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply.

    Yours faithfully,
    I have received another reply letter from BWLegal on 27/03/2018. They have attached copies of PCN letters, large pictures of the car and parking sign, and example of county court claim they won. Also more threats of legal action, here is Quote from Napier parking Final Reminder (Copy of letter sent June 2016).
    Should you force us to go to court, we give notice of our intention to seek our full legal costs against you under Civil Procedure Rules 27.14(2)(g) on the basis that you have wasted our time and that you do not have, and never advanced any legitimate defence. In appropriate circumstances, the rule permits a Judge to award;

    '...such further costs as the court may assess by the summary procedure and order to be paid be a party who has behaved unreasonably.'

    If we obtain a County Court Judgement (CCJ) against you, this could have a negative effect on your credit record for a period of 6 years. We will also take steps to enforce the County Court Judgement against you should you fail to pay.
    As you can see, I have sent them a Letter and Email request for ALL the information detailed above. They have again failed to provide the following information from above list:
    • Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract;
    • Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B,
      clause 1.1 "establishing yourself as the creditor";

    I cant keep repeating myself, so I will wait if they make small claim...

    QUESTIONS:
    • What would you do given this situation?
    • If they make Small Claim, what are my chances of winning?
    • What is a good defence against Court Claim?
    • Does CCJ have negative effect on credit rating?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards,
    ALLSOP
    Last edited by ALLSOP; 09-04-2018 at 4:07 AM.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Apr 18, 5:51 AM
    • 3,299 Posts
    • 5,563 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    1. What would you do given this situation? Check the facts

    2. If they make Small Claim, what are my chances of winning? 100% if the facts are in your favour

    3. What is a good defence against Court Claim? The facts

    4. Does CCJ have negative effect on credit rating? Yes, especially if you are stupid enough to get one by losing, and failing to pay in 28 days.

    PS Did I mention that the issue will turn on the facts such as the signs that were there and pics of your car in relation to these. Apparently you've been sent them but we can only guess what they say/look like as you haven't shared anything with us.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 09-04-2018 at 5:55 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • ALLSOP
    • By ALLSOP 9th Apr 18, 12:50 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ALLSOP
    PS Did I mention that the issue will turn on the facts such as the signs that were there and pics of your car in relation to these. Apparently you've been sent them but we can only guess what they say/look like as you haven't shared anything with us.

    Thanks for the reply, facts are as follows:
    The pictures show the car is stopped on verge/footpath, facing away from Gate towards exit,
    looks like hazard lights are on.

    There is close-up picture of the car windscreen, it clearly shows there is no driver in the car.
    Also there is 1 Napier Parking Sign next to the Gate, small writing and not easy to read.

    Looking at the Close-Up Picture of Windscreen, I don't like the fact there is no driver in car.
    Do I have any Defense, or should I pay?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Apr 18, 12:57 PM
    • 9,298 Posts
    • 9,577 Thanks
    KeithP
    Why do we need a new thread on this?
    .
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Apr 18, 12:59 PM
    • 37,323 Posts
    • 21,512 Thanks
    Quentin
    A ccj only has a negative effect on your status if you ignore it for more than a month.

    As long as you pay a ccj off in full within a month of getting it then it is expunged from the records and won't affect your credit rating
    • ALLSOP
    • By ALLSOP 9th Apr 18, 1:48 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ALLSOP
    Why do we need a new thread on this?
    Cant Find Old Thread and I have different questions.. What do you think of this case?

    As long as you pay a ccj off in full within a month of getting it then it is expunged from the records and won't affect your credit rating
    Thanks..

    Given the facts above, Do I have any Defense, or should I Pay?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Apr 18, 2:18 PM
    • 37,323 Posts
    • 21,512 Thanks
    Quentin
    You can see how busy this forum is.

    You do need to keep everything in the one thread.

    You can find your other thread via your user profile

    Ask a board guide to merge your threads.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Apr 18, 2:26 PM
    • 10,016 Posts
    • 9,854 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 18, 2:30 PM
    • 61,745 Posts
    • 74,641 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I had received a £90 PCN from Napier Parking 2 years ago on 11/03/2016 for my previous car. Reason for issue: parking or waiting on roadway or on verge/footpath.
    Which location, is it Council owned, or Napier owned? This is important.

    Has the driver ever been identified?

    These BW Legal cases are always, always worth defending.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • ALLSOP
    • By ALLSOP 9th Apr 18, 2:43 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ALLSOP
    Which location, is it Council owned, or Napier owned? This is important.

    Has the driver ever been identified?

    These BW Legal cases are always, always worth defending.
    Expensive Apartments, looks like private property, but I don't know who owns the property. The driver has not been identified, I was registered keeper of car.

    How can I defend this?
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