Everyone seems to want to shove you onto a smart meter

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Newbie
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    edited 15 September 2018 at 4:20PM
    Houbara wrote: »
    https://greennetworkenergy.co.uk/help-centre/meters-and-meter-reading/smart-meter-information/
    This may be outdated information.according to their website "they anticipate our roll out of SMETS2 smart meters to start mid 2018 "
    Had a quote from them whilst I was perusing the website on my yearly usage..Pretty poor at over £125 a year more on my 2200kwh electric and 10,000 gas kwhs than a few of the other front runners

    Yes, I took it to mean 'we will only start installing smart meters when SMETS2 becomes available', but I've not been following when that's expected to be. Sensible policy if you ask me, instead of wasting money installing obsolescent devices.

    My tariff is 13p & 2.91p/kWh, with £59.10 & £57.26 S/C.
  • Robisere
    Robisere Posts: 3,237 Forumite
    First Anniversary Photogenic First Post Combo Breaker
    I read my meters regularly, transmit readings to EDF and receive updated information within 24/48 hours. The meters were newly fitted in 2015 and are both dumb. As they are so new, I cannot be threatened with the 'old, outdated meter' excuse. I don't want a Smart meter, I cannot be compelled to have one and I manage my energy use myself. What's the problem?
    I think this job really needs
    a much bigger hammer.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,093 Community Admin
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    edited 15 September 2018 at 8:32PM
    Robisere wrote: »
    I read my meters regularly, transmit readings to EDF and receive updated information within 24/48 hours. The meters were newly fitted in 2015 and are both dumb. As they are so new, I cannot be threatened with the 'old, outdated meter' excuse. I don't want a Smart meter, I cannot be compelled to have one and I manage my energy use myself. What's the problem?

    The roll out of smart meters is about the development of a smart grid. This is something that most countries are developing. The information that generators need from your meter is 30 minute usage information which I doubt whether the most ardent dumb meter homeowner will be willing to provide. That said, we, being British, have got ourselves into a smart meter roll out situation that is both un-necessarily complex; technically risky; extremely expensive and running late.

    The benefits associated with a Smart Grid include:

    More efficient transmission of electricity

    Detection of soon to fail components: eg; high/low voltage situations

    Quicker restoration of electricity after power disturbances with real time digital troubleshooting (at the moment, engineers have to deploy to the location of the outage to identify the nature of a fault)

    Reduced operational and management costs for utilities will ultimately lead to lower than might be power costs for consumers.

    Reducing peak demand will also help lower electricity rates; eg; Time of Use tariffs to better match demand with supply (At the moment, a large chunk of our electricity bill is paying for 'just in case' electricity diesel generation that might never be used.)

    Increased integration into the Grid of large-scale renewable energy systems.

    Better integration of customer-owned power generation systems, including renewable energy systems

    Improved Grid security

    A smart grid is deemed to be vital for all countries moving to an all electric vehicle society.

    Personally, I think that this matters.
  • chris73
    chris73 Posts: 364 Forumite
    edited 15 September 2018 at 10:35PM
    My reasons for not having a Smart Meter are two fold, firstly down to the risk that we may see a 'tiered' electricity charge introduced, where we are penalised with a higher rate tariff during periods of high demand, such as in the Evenings, or during sudden colder periods in the Winter months, when the grid is stretched or more generation has to be brought online or when there is no wind for the wind turbines!.

    I believe such a system is already implemented in some other Countries, where they pay more for the Electricity used during high demand periods such as 5PM than say, 10AM when demand is lower.

    This type of charging works a bit like Economy 7 does at the moment with peak / off-peak periods, but more of them, spread out during different periods of the day, so between 7AM and 3PM and 9PM - 11PM you might be charged 12p per kw/h but between 3pm and 9pm that may increase to 17p per kw/h. It may not even be that structured, different tiers could be remotely kicked in at will by the Grid or Energy Companies in relation to the real time demand.

    Since I work full time, the majority of my energy is used when i'm at home during the Evenings, and so why should I be effectively penalised with higher energy costs for working for a living, and being at work when energy is cheaper?. I'm also not keen on leaving washing machines / tumble dryers timed for use during the night or when the house is unoccupied in order to take advantage of any planned cheaper periods, due to the very real and media documented fire risk.

    Some may say, that tiered tariffs will never happen but nobody on this forum or even the energy companies themselves will give you a written guarantee of this, but one thing is certain, if they are introduced the one thing which will be needed to do it will be meters which can read multiple tariffs and smart meters can do this, as we have a 'seasonal' meter at work which log can units of Electricity used, during Winter / Summer months and Weekday / Weekend periods and charge different rates accordingly!.

    There is no way that multiple tariffs can be logged with a single tariff digital credit meter, and no chance whatsoever with the older spinning wheel / dial type meters, so if there is even a 5% chance of multiple tiered tariffs being introduced at some point in the future then I would prefer to reduce that 5% risk down further to 0% by keeping an old school dumb meter, and take my chances on any legacy tariff.

    They have also got to somehow claw back the £27 Billion loss of duty and VAT revenue as more and more people stop buying petrol and diesel in favour of using Electric Cars, I suspect that one way that this will be done is by increasing the VAT levied on Energy from the current 5% on domestic use to the full 20% on the Energy used by the Car Charging system and log two different readings - domestic and car use with different rates of VAT on each. There is no chance that Electric Car owners will still be charging their cars for 12p / 13p per KW/H as they do currently when this shortfall has to be addressed, as its being kept cheap in order to entice people to changeover - just like they did with diesel cars back in the day, and I can see a point eventually where those with Electric Cars will look back fondly on their ICE cars of yesterday and reminisce about how much cheaper they were to run.

    The second reason for not wanting a smart meter is because its what the Glubberment want us to do. If you believe that the Politicians really do get up in the morning and only act in the best interests of 66 million complete strangers then you are deluded! because they aren't Saints or your Mum!, and so if something is rolled out and sold to you as being in our best interests then suspect the complete opposite!.

    We have also not had the cost of rolling out these Smart Meters added to our bills yet, which no doubt will be another treat in store in the coming year or so.
  • Tired pricing has been operating in the UK for decades..Nothing new at all in that
    .Eco 7, Eco 10, British Gas and their free 8 hour weekend tariff, or the highly restrictive white meter arrangements in Scotland where a very few suppliers hold their customers in their grip unable to access the whole market due to legacy meters and wiring..
    All are tiered pricing.
    I suspect if Time Of Use does appear in the UK that MSE devotees will make the best use of it and come out winning
  • takman
    takman Posts: 3,876 Forumite
    Combo Breaker First Post
    chris73 wrote: »
    My reasons for not having a Smart Meter are two fold, firstly down to the risk that we may see a 'tiered' electricity charge introduced, where we are penalised with a higher rate tariff during periods of high demand, such as in the Evenings, or during sudden colder periods in the Winter months, when the grid is stretched or more generation has to be brought online or when there is no wind for the wind turbines!.

    I believe such a system is already implemented in some other Countries, where they pay more for the Electricity used during high demand periods such as 5PM than say, 10AM when demand is lower.

    This type of charging works a bit like Economy 7 does at the moment with peak / off-peak periods, but more of them, spread out during different periods of the day, so between 7AM and 3PM and 9PM - 11PM you might be charged 12p per kw/h but between 3pm and 9pm that may increase to 17p per kw/h. It may not even be that structured, different tiers could be remotely kicked in at will by the Grid or Energy Companies in relation to the real time demand.

    Since I work full time, the majority of my energy is used when i'm at home during the Evenings, and so why should I be effectively penalised with higher energy costs for working for a living, and being at work when energy is cheaper?. I'm also not keen on leaving washing machines / tumble dryers timed for use during the night or when the house is unoccupied in order to take advantage of any planned cheaper periods, due to the very real and media documented fire risk.

    Some may say, that tiered tariffs will never happen but nobody on this forum or even the energy companies themselves will give you a written guarantee of this, but one thing is certain, if they are introduced the one thing which will be needed to do it will be meters which can read multiple tariffs and smart meters can do this, as we have a 'seasonal' meter at work which log can units of Electricity used, during Winter / Summer months and Weekday / Weekend periods and charge different rates accordingly!.

    There is no way that multiple tariffs can be logged with a single tariff digital credit meter, and no chance whatsoever with the older spinning wheel / dial type meters, so if there is even a 5% chance of multiple tiered tariffs being introduced at some point in the future then I would prefer to reduce that 5% risk down further to 0% by keeping an old school dumb meter, and take my chances on any legacy tariff.

    So let's say they introduce these tariffs with different rates throughout the day when 95% of the population have smart meters.
    You really think by keeping your non-smart meter you will somehow be able to be on a tariff that works out cheaper :rotfl:

    Any legacy tariff that they keep will obviously be equivalent to a standard variable tariff today and you will certainly be worse off by keeping a non-smart meter.
    chris73 wrote: »
    They have also got to somehow claw back the £27 Billion loss of duty and VAT revenue as more and more people stop buying petrol and diesel in favour of using Electric Cars, I suspect that one way that this will be done is by increasing the VAT levied on Energy from the current 5% on domestic use to the full 20% on the Energy used by the Car Charging system and log two different readings - domestic and car use with different rates of VAT on each. There is no chance that Electric Car owners will still be charging their cars for 12p / 13p per KW/H as they do currently when this shortfall has to be addressed, as its being kept cheap in order to entice people to changeover - just like they did with diesel cars back in the day, and I can see a point eventually where those with Electric Cars will look back fondly on their ICE cars of yesterday and reminisce about how much cheaper they were to run.

    The second reason for not wanting a smart meter is because its what the Glubberment want us to do. If you believe that the Politicians really do get up in the morning and only act in the best interests of 66 million complete strangers then you are deluded! because they aren't Saints or your Mum!, and so if something is rolled out and sold to you as being in our best interests then suspect the complete opposite!.

    We have also not had the cost of rolling out these Smart Meters added to our bills yet, which no doubt will be another treat in store in the coming year or so.

    So your saying if the government want the population to do something then that means it's automatically a bad thing :rotfl:
  • A._Badger
    A._Badger Posts: 5,852 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    takman wrote: »



    So your saying if the government want the population to do something then that means it's automatically a bad thing :rotfl:

    Experience shows that is very often the case. Particularly so when clever people with vested interests manage to pull the wool over the eyes of venal and/or dim politicians and civil servants.
  • Uxb
    Uxb Posts: 1,340 Forumite
    It also opens up the possibility of maximum demand pricing which I believe some other countries also use.

    This is where to prevent some people using a huge amount of electric at periods of high demand regardless of the price so they are limited to a certain amount of maximum KW demand at any one point. Currently in those countries where it operate you buy an electric supply with the KW power taken limited in the meter at a different price depending on that limit.
    With smart meters you could do all this automatically.

    Indeed large users in the UK already have a similar tariff called a max MVA demand where if they go over the agreed limit even for only a short time at any point in the day then that entire days worth of electric usage is charged at a much higher rate than the normal rate.
    The objective is to reduce peak demand points on the electric network since the public seem unwilling to actually pay for new power stations to provide for their ever increasing consumption.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,093 Community Admin
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    Coming our way soon will be something similar to this:

    http://www.ontario-hydro.com/current-rates

    I would also guess that in 10 to 15 years time a lot of homes will have off grid battery storage. The only reason that it hasn't happened already is because the cost per kWh from a battery (taking into account battery life) exceeds the cost of importing electricity. It's a double win: ToU/tiered pricing will deter people from using electricity at times of peak demand (negating some of the need for standby/expensive generation which may never be used) and, secondly, consumers will be able to store electricity when import costs are low; for example, during periods of high winds and high solar. At the moment when generation exceeds demand, we pay the generators to stop their wind turbines.

    This all makes a lot of sense, so I am happy with the final destination: it's the manner of our getting there that is the problem.
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