Pension Input Amount and 60% marginal tax rate

Gronson
Gronson Posts: 13 Forumite
Hello all
I would be grateful for any help on this one.

I am in a DB pension scheme which has the option to make additional voluntary contributions as well.

For the current year, the pension input amount for my DB scheme will be £39,000 to be tested against the annual allowance of £40,000. I have no unused annual allowance brought forward from the 3 previous years.
My pay after salary sacrifice (cycle to work and pension contributions) will be £105k

Does it make sense to make AVC contributions of £5k or £6k which will benefit from a marginal tax rate saving of 60% (40% tax and 20% due to loss of personal allowance) even if I have to pay tax on excess pension input allowance at 40% on £4K or £5k? May also have the benefit of taking me out of self assessment...

Am I missing something?
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Comments

  • Brynsam
    Brynsam Posts: 3,643 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper Combo Breaker First Post
    Sounds ideal territory for proper financial advice - the sort you pay for. There may be other avenues (not just AVCs) which could net a tasty saving.
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    edited 12 July 2018 at 1:19PM
    You're allowed to carry forward unused annual allowance from the past three years.

    The annual allowance charge is calculated by adding the excess pension contributions to your taxable income, so you can save NI but not income tax on the portion subject to the charge. But see later answers, it's charged at marginal rate so it doesn't cost you a lower personal allowance and scheme pays can reduce the out of pocket cost.

    You can try to deliberately accumulate some annual allowance to carry forward by making low pension contributions for up to three years then high on the fourth, so you avoid the personal allowance reduction some years.
  • Gronson
    Gronson Posts: 13 Forumite
    Thanks Jamesd

    I should have made it clear that I’ve no unused annual allowance brought forward
    Regards
  • EdSwippet
    EdSwippet Posts: 1,588 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    On my reading of the facts given, you only want to put a further £1k into the pension, for 60% effective tax relief on that.

    Anything you contribute above £40k is simply added to your tax income on your return, and so you would be paying an effective 60% tax on pension contributions above £40k. Don't forget that you will then also pay tax on withdrawals, an effective 15% if basic rate and below the LTA, 30% if higher rate and below. The cumulative rates on these contributions is likely to come out to 75-90%, so definitely not worth it.

    Remember that your tax rate encompasses not just earnings but everything, so you could actually be past the 60% band, or maybe into the 45% band, so numbers could change. In general though, the most common occasions where it is worthwhile breaking the pensions annual allowance is where it allows you to capture a worthwhile employer match. That doesn't sound like the case here.
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,318 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Chutzpah Haggler
    As it says here https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private-pension/annual-allowance "Rates
    The amount you went above the annual allowance is added to your taxable income."

    So what good would it do? If you made AVC conts to take your taxable income down to £100k, but then exceeded the AA and as a result the excess was added to your taxable income, you taxable income is back over £100k and your personal allowance would still be reduced!

    Besides, how do you know what the PIA is for your DB scheme? How have you worked it out? Do you know for certain what your pensionable salary will be over the year?
  • Gronson
    Gronson Posts: 13 Forumite
    Thanks Edswippet
    My understanding of the AVCs is that it can be drawn as a tax free lump sum on retirement provided it doesn’t comprise more than 25% of the total pension pot (which it won’t), so I wasn’t worried about paying tax later on during drawdown.

    However, the other part of your answer is the nub of the problem.

    From the HMRC website I am still not sure whether if my taxable income less salary sacrifice drops below £100k, I retain all personal allowance and whether an excess pension charge above the £40k annual allowance gets treated as taxable income for the calculation of this personal allowance taper. I was hoping that I just got taxed on the excess pension charge at my highest marginal rate (40%) and it was not taken account of in the calculation of the personal allowance taper.
  • Gronson
    Gronson Posts: 13 Forumite
    Thanks Zagfles
    I’ve got a calculator which works out fairly accurately the pension growth arising from my DB scheme each year and I do know my pensionable pay for this year.

    It seems like I can’t win on this one though

    Thanks for your help
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,318 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Chutzpah Haggler
    When you worked out that you have no AA to carry forwards, did you account for the shenanigans in the 2015/16 tax year with the 2 mini-tax years?
  • Gronson
    Gronson Posts: 13 Forumite
    Yes, although my calculator broke down that year, the pension scheme provided my PIA for 2015/16
  • EdSwippet
    EdSwippet Posts: 1,588 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Gronson wrote: »
    My understanding of the AVCs is that it can be drawn as a tax free lump sum on retirement provided it doesn’t comprise more than 25% of the total pension pot (which it won’t), so I wasn’t worried about paying tax later on during drawdown.
    Okay, but my guess -- and personally I only have DC pensions, so take this for what it is worth -- is that this tax liability will manifest somewhere along the line. Without AVCs you could perhaps have an initial tax-free lump sum and then lower taxed regular payments in future. With the AVCs you might take the initial tax-free lump sum from those, but the result would be higher taxed regular payments from non-AVC stuff in future.

    At your income levels you probably want to watch out for two other potential lurking dangers. The first is the pensions annual allowance taper which starts at £150k of annual income (all income, not just salary). It is particularly hard to know in advance whether or not you will hit this until it is too late to do anything about it, when you are then hit with a large and unwanted double-tax bill on pension contributions. (The cynic in me suspect that this is precisely the outcome George Osborne was aiming for with this ridiculous wheeze.)

    The second is the risk of hitting the pensions lifetime allowance. If you have only DB pensions this is much less likely for you than for those of us with only DC pensions -- DB gets much better treatment than DC here. Still worth watching out for in future though, and one to avoid where you can.

    Pension "simplification", eh?
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