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    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 14th Jan 10, 11:22 AM
    • 34,021 Posts
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    seven-day-weekend
    When I said that DLA is there to cover extra heating, I meant in the sense that krisskross said, that if you need the heating because of your condition it can be classed as a 'care' need.

    Also I wish to point out (again) arising from fedupconsumer's post that many pensioners living in the EU do NOT get the heating allowance and also that many still pay taxes to the UK. We do not get the heating allowance as we have not qualified for it in the UK. My husband still pays tax to the UK (he pays none to Spain).
    Member #10 of 2 savers club
    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton
  • DX2
    Since we have done this sort of thing before DLA v's pensioners, I am just going to recycle my post

    Winter Fuel Payments: Disabled

    Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost of extending the winter fuel payment scheme to disabled people under 60 years who are in receipt of (a) the middle or higher rate care component and (b) the higher rate mobility component of disability living allowance in each of the next five years. [200574]

    Mr. Mike O'Brien:Winter fuel payments were created to give pensioners reassurance that they can afford to heat their homes in winter. It is paid in a lump sum each winter to ensure that money is available when fuel bills arrive.
    Help is already available through disability benefits and the disability premium in income-related benefits in recognition of the extra costs, including heating, which disabled people may have. The extra heating needs of disabled people by and large, arise all year round, not just in the winter months.
    Information is not available in the format requested. Many individuals are in receipt of both a care component and mobility component of disability living allowance (DLA).
    The following table details the estimated cost of extending winter fuel payments to individuals in receipt of some combination of the higher or middle rate care component of DLA and/or the higher rate mobility component of DLA or one of these components on its own.
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm080501/text/80501w0004.htm
    Originally posted by DX2
    The following table details the estimated cost of extending winter fuel payments to individuals in receipt of some combination of the higher or middle rate care component of DLA and/or the higher rate mobility component of DLA or one of these components on its own.
    All under 60 (including children)2008-09 prices ( million)Total cost in each year
    2008-09 290 million
    2009-10 290 million
    2010-11 290 million
    2011-12 285 million
    2012-13 280 million
  • krisskross
    Do you know his circumstances though? No-one has to justify themseleves to you, as to what we do & don't spend our DLA on.

    Like people have already said, DLA DOESN'T cover the full costs of being disabled. Try telling that to people like myself, who often have to save up their DLA to buy things, or spend their own money on disability related stuff.

    For most people heating isn't the only disability related expensive they have.
    Originally posted by sh1305
    Yes I do know his circumstances. He is my grandson. I was not suggesting anyone should have to justify anything but some posters seem to think pensioners should prove that they actually spend the WFA on energy bills so why shouldn't DLA recipients prove what they spend their benefit on?

    As for DLA not covering all the cost of being disabled. It is only meant to help. Do you not get any other benefits? No income support, housing and council tax paid for etc?What you call spending your own money is possibly just other benefit payments. Do you think that working people don't have to spend 'their own money' on stuff they need or want? We as pensioners should be incensed that we have to spend some of our own money on heating. Why can't we just submit the whole bill and get it paid? Do you think non disabled people don't have to save up for things they want? Add up the total cost of your benefit package and I bet it comes to more than my 230 a month pension plus 1.25 a week as my share of a couple's WFP. And I worked from age 16 to 59.
    Last edited by krisskross; 14-01-2010 at 11:39 AM.
  • DX2
    shouldn't we all be petitioning for cheaper gas and electricity across the board so that we can all worry less about our bill?
    Originally posted by fizzytrinket
    Don't be silly, how dare you come here with such a sensible suggestion!
    • C_Mababejive
    • By C_Mababejive 14th Jan 10, 11:50 AM
    • 10,968 Posts
    • 9,862 Thanks
    C_Mababejive
    shouldn't we all be petitioning for cheaper gas and electricity across the board so that we can all worry less about our bill?
    Originally posted by fizzytrinket
    Yes...now what you need is a fully integrated gas and electricity industry which is big enuogh to privde good service and have the financial muscle to negotiate fair prices...oh wait a minute,,,didnt we used to have that and werent they called..

    The British Gas Corporation
    Central Electricity Generating Board


    But Joe and Joella public bleated about how bad and nasty they were so the nice government chopped them up,sold them off and now its even worse when it wasnt bad in the first place!!

    Nice trick
    Feudal Britain needs land reform. 70% of the land is "owned" by 1 % of the population and at least 50% is unregistered (inherited by landed gentry). Thats why your slave box costs so much..
  • Trialia
    krisskross, if you missed my earlier post, I specified a lot of exactly what my DLA goes towards. I'm 23, and I live alone. Being young doesn't mean you automatically spend all your income on computer games or treats like that - your grandson appears to be a special case in that regard! Why don't his parents ask him for some form of contribution towards their taking care of him, if he doesn't give them anything? When I was living with my father and stepmother I did, and if I want a computer game I save up for it.

    What you don't seem to realise is that Income Support, Housing Benefit and DLA still do not cover everything for those of us who do need help. I have to watch every penny to manage, just like people who do work - and it frustrates me that I can't work, because I've known what field I want to go into from a very young age, and the benefits that I get are just barely enough to live on.
    Homosexual, Unitarian, young, British, female, disabled. Do you need more?
  • krisskross
    krisskross, if you missed my earlier post, I specified a lot of exactly what my DLA goes towards. I'm 23, and I live alone. Being young doesn't mean you automatically spend all your income on computer games or treats like that - your grandson appears to be a special case in that regard! Why don't his parents ask him for some form of contribution towards their taking care of him, if he doesn't give them anything? When I was living with my father and stepmother I did, and if I want a computer game I save up for it.

    What you don't seem to realise is that Income Support, Housing Benefit and DLA still do not cover everything for those of us who do need help. I have to watch every penny to manage, just like people who do work - and it frustrates me that I can't work, because I've known what field I want to go into from a very young age, and the benefits that I get are just barely enough to live on.
    Originally posted by Trialia
    My grandson does contribute to household expenses. He uses his IB payments for this. He still has all his DLA to spend on treats and fripperies. All I was trying to point out is that ALL of us have to save for things we want, very few of us don't have to watch our expenditure carefully. This is not purely the province of those receiving DLA.

    I know another couple with a child who on the face of it earn good money. However the cost of their high mortgage plus childcare plus getting to work season tickets mean that they are certainly no better off than a family on benefits. And they are out of the house for 13 hours a day. Their car is an 'L' registration and has just given up the ghost. They earn just barely enough to live on. Sometimes people who live on benefits have no idea how difficult it is for those in work, not all workers live a luxurious life you know. A 40k a year job will end up as less than 30K after deductions. At least 20K a year benefits will still be 20K plus a guaranteed increase every year.

    I have read many posters on here convinced they could command huge salaries if only their health allowed them to work. Those sort of jobs are very few and far between.
    Last edited by krisskross; 14-01-2010 at 12:37 PM.
    • Tulip
    • By Tulip 14th Jan 10, 12:36 PM
    • 29,011 Posts
    • 73,125 Thanks
    Tulip
    signed the petition
    • Indie Kid
    • By Indie Kid 14th Jan 10, 1:15 PM
    • 21,629 Posts
    • 29,326 Thanks
    Indie Kid
    As for DLA not covering all the cost of being disabled. It is only meant to help. Do you not get any other benefits? No income support, housing and council tax paid for etc?What you call spending your own money is possibly just other benefit payments. Do you think that working people don't have to spend 'their own money' on stuff they need or want? We as pensioners should be incensed that we have to spend some of our own money on heating. Why can't we just submit the whole bill and get it paid? Do you think non disabled people don't have to save up for things they want? Add up the total cost of your benefit package and I bet it comes to more than my 230 a month pension plus 1.25 a week as my share of a couple's WFP. And I worked from age 16 to 59.
    Originally posted by krisskross
    Not everyone on DLA receives other benefits. As stated in another thread, even if I received LHA, I wuld have to find another 10+ per week to cover rent. Being a full-time student exempts me from council tax; but that's not the point.

    Actually you're wrong - my benefits per month are just under 150. Out of that, I am expected to pay for things such as nappy sacks, costs to & from hospital, taxi vouchers, (can't drive and am not really meant to be out by myself) extra washing, new clothes (I can only wear certain clothes for various reasons) and nappies / pads.

    I can garuntee you that it comes to a lot more than 150 per month.
  • Trialia
    krisskross, I didn't say I imagined I could command a huge salary if only my health allowed me to work. I'm simply pointing out that the stereotype of people on DLA having it much easier than people who work full-time for the same money and DLA recipients not wanting to work is all - for most people - very much a mistaken assumption.

    Oh, and I don't get IB.
    Homosexual, Unitarian, young, British, female, disabled. Do you need more?
  • krisskross
    Not everyone on DLA receives other benefits. As stated in another thread, even if I received LHA, I wuld have to find another 10+ per week to cover rent. Being a full-time student exempts me from council tax; but that's not the point.

    Actually you're wrong - my benefits per month are just under 150. Out of that, I am expected to pay for things such as nappy sacks, costs to & from hospital, taxi vouchers, (can't drive and am not really meant to be out by myself) extra washing, new clothes (I can only wear certain clothes for various reasons) and nappies / pads.

    I can garuntee you that it comes to a lot more than 150 per month.
    Originally posted by sh1305
    Do you get student benefits? I can't believe DLA is your sole income. Unless of course you have a partner who supports you.

    I think this whole who gets what and it's not fair thing is a generational issue.

    My generation who never got any sort of benefits except 5 bob a week for a second and subsequent child consider ourselves fortunate to be living in a country where we matter to the extent that we are given a lump sum each winter to ensure we can afford to keep warm. I certainly do.

    Younger people often seem to be of the view that all their living costs should be picked up by taxpayers and this is their right. It is a privilege not a right to live in a country where living costs will be met for those unable to provide for themselves without having to contribute a single sou, which is why desperate people from other countries risk their lives to get here.
    • fedupconsumer
    • By fedupconsumer 14th Jan 10, 4:18 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    fedupconsumer
    "Surely DLA is given to help with the extra costs associated with being disabled? What if the only thing that could be done to help was extra heating? Surely this would come under'care needs'?"

    Extra costs in regards to care and mobility it does not cover heating
    How much do you get?

    Disability Living Allowance has two parts called 'components':
    • a care component - if you need help looking after yourself or supervision to keep you safe
    • a mobility component - if you can't walk or need help getting around


    Some people will be entitled to receive just one component; others may get both.
    The care component and mobility component are paid at different rates depending on how your disability affects you.
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/disabledpeople/financialsupport/dg_10011731

    Nothing in that suggests that it is purely allocated for heating or utility bills. Care means people coming into help you or for specialist equipment or medication not prescribed under the NHS which there are many. We can quash the argument that DLA is for heating right on the head it is crystal clear what the two components are for. Its all very well and good saying that some people may not have any care needs but the vast majority do.


    "As you and several others complain that pensioners do not necessarily use the WFP for energy bills then perhaps it is time for people receiving DLA to specify exactly what they spend that money on. After all even the lowest tier is considerably more than the WFP.



    As we pay our fuel bills by DD throughout the year we have usually built up a surplus by winter. The WFP goes into our bank account and just becomes 'our money' to spend as we wish. Exactly like DLA goes into people's accounts with no check on how it is spent."

    Its not a complaint its a critisim and a grave concern of the system which needs a radical overhaul. You keep on saying that DLA is more than WFP but its gone before bills and other things are taken into account. Pentioners also do not have to pay for a TV licence currently standing at 142.50 where disabled people do it cancels itself out. Its not fair that that sum of money should be taken from the pockets of disabled people either.

    We had a backlog of debt due to inability to pay for gas and electricity over what we were missold and owed eon a few hundereds of pounds before switching to another supplier, it took 1 year 3 months to clear. We have the same problem with the other supplier, thats how little money there is left the 250 given to pentioners would in effect raise me out of fuel poverty . Here is me thinking the government wanted to combat that effectively either through pressing through legislation to put a legal requirement on gas and electricty companies to reduce the tarrif costs. To aid the most vunerable but there isnt the political will do so.

    I am thankful that we have a new boiler and issulation but they are targetting the help incorrectly. If anyone cannot see that a pentioner with thousands or millions in the bank is more in need than a disabled person living on less than 90 a week is beyond me. Its very very clear something is drastically wrong with the government and its failure to tackle disabled issues either hate crime or benifits system.


    "I know a young man who gets low rate care and mobility. He lives with his parents and pays for no care. He doesn't need any actual physical care except for someone to say it is about time he had a shower, changed his bed etc. Neither does he have mobility needs as he is agrophobic so doesn't go out and has no physical issues to limit his mobility. So he gets 36 a week to spend on computer games."

    Do you know how severe agropobia can be its awful truly awful as a recovering agrophobic having panic attacks leaving the house you need somebody there to help to guide you.
  • krisskross
    Pentioners also do not have to pay for a TV licence currently standing at 142.50 where disabled people do it cancels itself out. .
    Originally posted by fedupconsumer
    Pensioners do have to pay for a TV licence. You really need to be sure of your facts.
  • krisskross
    Nothing in that suggests that it is purely allocated for heating or utility bills. Care means people coming into help you or for specialist equipment or medication not prescribed under the NHS which there are many. We can quash the argument that DLA is for heating right on the head it is crystal clear what the two components are for. Its all very well and good saying that some people may not have any care needs but the vast majority do.


    So should my grandson and the no doubt thousands like him have his DLA stopped because he doesn't pay anyone for care, he needs no specialist equipment and no medication unavailable on the NHS? If he is not using the money for the purpose it is given to him should he still receive it? Should he still be reciving mobility money weekly when he is perfectly happy never to set foot outside the front door?

    So many of you are suggesting that WFP should not be given to those people who do not specifically use it to pay for fuel, but fuel is still paid for. I therefore suggest that those people getting DLA that cannot account for the exact things it is used to purchase do not need it either. You really cannot have your cake and eat it.
    • fedupconsumer
    • By fedupconsumer 14th Jan 10, 5:08 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    fedupconsumer
    Pensioners do have to pay for a TV licence. You really need to be sure of your facts.
    Originally posted by krisskross
    if your over 75 you don't

    "So many of you are suggesting that WFP should not be given to those people who do not specifically use it to pay for fuel, but fuel is still paid for. I therefore suggest that those people getting DLA that cannot account for the exact things it is used to purchase do not need it either. You really cannot have your cake and eat it."

    Disability is more complex and you know it.

    You have failed to give a compelling argument for disabled people not receiving the WFP nor have actually addressed the governments inability to face up to the growing concerns raised by the OP to put people out of fuel poverty.

    There are so many loopholes in the governments policy its frightening and is condemning people to ill health and now with ESA regulations putting further pressure on people, government assessors ATOS falsifying medical documents it all amounts to a government failing disabled people.

    No matter how you sugar coat it this WFP should be means tested rolled out to disabled people and families in most need not on age. Its called good practice,such a simple solution but there is a problem in this country where disabled people are portrayed in the media as fakers and scroungers all willing to take from the state but not get involved in the economic community.

    WFP is specifically designed for fuel its not that difficult in paying it directly to utility companies. DLA is different and is more fluid in its allocation some people have greater expense from one month to the next, some may chose to save it up for respite care or a respite break themselves. They are two very different components, WFP are for heating and electricity costs exclusively.
    • pipkin71
    • By pipkin71 14th Jan 10, 5:12 PM
    • 19,360 Posts
    • 87,170 Thanks
    pipkin71
    WFP is specifically designed for fuel its not that difficult in paying it directly to utility companies. DLA is different and is more fluid in its allocation some people have greater expense from one month to the next, some may chose to save it up for respite care or a respite break themselves. They are two very different components, WFP are for heating and electricity costs exclusively.
    Originally posted by fedupconsumer
    The thing with the WFP - and it's the same with the CWP - is, if people pay by direct debit, their payments don't go up when they receive the WFP/CWP.

    I've recieved three CWP's and they've just gone into my account with the other money in there. I don't need to send them to the fuel company, because I'm already paying by direct debit.

    Of course, I'm using more gas and will therefor increase what I pay, but the DD is only evaluated once a year, so money has already been allocated.

    I feel this is the same for some who receive the WFP.
    There is something delicious about writing the first words of a story. You never quite know where they'll take you - Beatrix Potter
  • krisskross
    You have failed to give a compelling argument for disabled people not receiving the WFP nor have actually addressed the governments inability to face up to the growing concerns raised by the OP to put people out of fuel poverty.
    Originally posted by fedupconsumer
    Completely unaffordable as per DX2's post. Is that compelling enough for you? The magic money pot does have a bottom and there are going to be a lot of people realising this when the next government has to tackle the huge debt the country is in.
  • krisskross
    [QUOTE=fedupconsumer;28838239]
    edit: posted twice so deleted
    • BargainGalore
    • By BargainGalore 14th Jan 10, 5:27 PM
    • 3,209 Posts
    • 2,803 Thanks
    BargainGalore
    well make WFP means tested because many pensioners have plenty of money, granted not all do. Then give that money saved to disabled who need it and or have a medical condition that warrants it rather than everyone

    There is a strong case for some disabled to get WFP, there DLA does not pay for fuel
    • Indie Kid
    • By Indie Kid 14th Jan 10, 5:55 PM
    • 21,629 Posts
    • 29,326 Thanks
    Indie Kid
    Do you get student benefits? I can't believe DLA is your sole income. Unless of course you have a partner who supports you.
    Originally posted by krisskross
    I do get students loans & grants; but that goes on things such as rent, textbooks, ink, paper, food, etc. I also pay for a gym membership - I have muscle problems and this is the only thing that helps. (yes, I did try physio; but that left me unable to walk)

    Do you know how severe agropobia can be its awful truly awful as a recovering agrophobic having panic attacks leaving the house you need somebody there to help to guide you.
    Exactly. I know someone who has to get taxis everywhere because his is that bad.
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