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POPLA appeal regarding CEL

2

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  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    All you need to do is add the usual template about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable. You'll have seen that in the NEWBIES thread post #3.

    You should also have another point telling POPLA it's a non-POFA PCN (it is obvious that CEL NTKs are non-POFA, you only have to look at paragraph #9 of Schedule 4 of the POFA). A very simple comparison on wording shows you what's missing.

    Or you could copy someone else's, by searching the forum for CEL POPLA no keeper liability
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  • waribai
    waribai Posts: 140
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    So this is what I've got back.....Unfortunately, I sent my appeal to CEL before I found this forum. I now have CEL's response and I have to comment on the evidence.....

    Operator Name Civil Enforcement
    Operator Case Summary
    12. The Notice was issued as the Appellant failed to purchase any parking for his vehicle, registration. Please note that the Appellant had admitted to being the driver on the day in question and does not dispute the duration of stay within the car park (please find enclosed a copy of Appellant!!!8217;s original appeal where he identified himself as a driver).

    13. We refer you to the attached photographic evidence of the vehicle, captured by our Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras, entering the car park at .... and departing at ..... (total duration of 20 minutes).

    14. Signage in the car park clearly states "PHONE AND PAY OR PAY AT MACHINE !!!8230; you must (a) pay within 10 minutes of arrival and provide your full, exact registration number when making your payment!!!8230; If you breach any of these terms you will be charged £100."




    15. The Appellant failed to purchase parking for his vehicle, registration , as can be seen from the attached reports which show the vehicles that did purchase a parking session on the day in question. The reports also demonstrate that other drivers were complying with the terms and conditions, and that the Phone and Pay service and the payment machine were in good working order on the date of violation.
    16. The Appellant!!!8217;s POPLA submission raises matters which were not raised in their initial submission. This indicates that the Appellant is fully aware that on the day they failed to adhere to the parking terms, and that their POPLA submission is a deliberate attempt to subvert the appeals process. Also, please note that in his initial appeal the Appellant admitted that on a day in question he did not adhere the parking terms since he did not have enough chance to purchase a parking ticket.

    17. Whilst we appreciate the Appellant!!!8217;s submissions, we are unable to take into account mitigating circumstances; the terms and conditions of parking were clear. Furthermore, the Appellant failed to utilise the operator!!!8217;s helpline phone number (displayed at the bottom of signage) to report the occurrence, or to request advice on what further action could be taken.

    18. The amount of our Notice (£100- reduced to £60- if paid within 14 days) is in accordance with the guidance provided by the British Parking Association in their Code of Practice, and we would refer you to paragraphs 9 !!!8211; 11 of our response.

    19. We note the Appellant!!!8217;s comments that the text on the signage was too small, however, motorists must be expected to have sufficiently good sight to read signs brought to their attention. Furthermore, it is clear that the Appellant was aware that there was signage on site.

    20. Whilst we acknowledge the Appellant!!!8217;s submissions regarding the signage at the car park, please note we have been managing this site since September 2017, six months prior to the violation, and there are many clear and visible signs in the car park advising motorists of the terms and conditions, as can be seen from the attached image plan. It is the motorist!!!8217;s duty to read the signs and act in accordance with the terms and conditions. Please note that we have attached several date and time stamped photographs of the car park which were taken by our engineers on 20/09/2017.

    21. We refer to the Appellant comments that signs might not be fully visible by the time he entered the car park. Please note that the Appellant entered and left the site on a day time (arrival time 12:55pm) which could also be seen from the attached photographic evidence.

    22. The Appellant has questioned the accuracy of our ANPR cameras. These are regularly calibrated to ensure accuracy, and are automatically updated to be in line with Greenwich Mean Time. Furthermore, our ANPR cameras operate within the guidelines set out in the British Parking Association Code of Practice. The high-tech cameras are not designed to monitor movements within the car park and we do not operate Closed Circuit Television (CCTV) cameras.
    23. In their submission the Appellant has commented that it is not clear that ANPR cameras monitor the car park, however, our signs clearly do state : !!!8216;!!!8217;Enforcement is carried out by Civil Enforcement Ltd, who monitor compliance of these terms and conditions using ANPR cameras and manual patrols and may contact DVLA to request the Registered Keeper!!!8217;s details!!!8230;!!!8217;!!!8217;.

    24. We are not relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, as the Appellant has admitted that he was the driver of the vehicle. Please note that Section 21.6 and 21.7 of the BPA Code state that the Operator has up to 28 days to apply to the DVLA, and once the registered keeper!!!8217;s details have been obtained, the Operator has a further 14 days in which to send the PCN. The registered keeper!!!8217;s details were obtained from the DVLA on 21/03/2018, and the PCN was sent five days later on 26/03/2018.

    25. The grace period was taken into consideration before issuing the Notice, and we have deemed this incident to have exceeded the allowed grace period. Please note that whilst we do not advertise the grace period on signage, it is compliant with the guidance provided by the British Parking Association in their Code of Practice, which states that motorists should be allowed 10 minutes in which to decide if they are going to park or not.
    26. The fact that the Appellant was a customer of the facilities does not invalidate the ticket issued. The terms are clearly stated on the signage; in the event that a driver fails to adhere to the stated parking terms, they will be charged at the PCN level.

    27. Please note that it is the decision of the mangers of the facilities whether they choose to advertise the parking terms and conditions on/in their facility. Staff inside the facilities are not obligated to bring the parking terms to the public!!!8217;s attention, and we always advise that drivers refer to the signs in the car park, regardless of any representations made by a third party (e.g. staff) who was not a party to the parking agreement.

    28. There are many clear and visible sings in the car park, as evidenced by the attached image plan. Drivers have an obligation to check for signage when parking on private land !!!8211; the signs do not need to be placed directly in the position where they parked, they simply must be placed throughout the site so that drivers are given the chance to read them (BPA Code of Practice, 18.3).

    29. Please note that we are not relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, as the Appellant has admitted that he was the driver of the vehicle. Please note that Section 21.6 and 21.7 of the BPA code state that the Operator has up to 28 days to apply to the DVLA, and once the registered keeper!!!8217;s details have been obtained, the Operator has a further 14 days in which to send the PCN.

    30. The Appellant!!!8217;s details as the registered keeper were obtained from the DVLA on ........and the PCN was sent four days later, on........
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    please note that in his initial appeal the Appellant admitted that on a day in question he did not adhere the parking terms since he did not have enough chance to purchase a parking ticket.
    Wow (sorry) that was as dreadful a first appeal as you can get, admitting to driving AND admitting not paying and to boot, implying that you saw the signs because you knew change was needed, and took almost half an hour to leave. OUCH!

    And example of what NOT to do, with any private PCN.

    Never mind, it's only CEL. They are not organised and are not to be paid, even if you lost at POPLA!

    Did they produce evidence of landowner authority?
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  • waribai
    waribai Posts: 140
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    Wow (sorry) that was as dreadful a first appeal as you can get, admitting to driving AND admitting not paying and that you saw the signs/knew change was needed.

    And example of what NOT to do, with any private PCN.

    Never mind, it's only CEL. They are not organised and are not to be paid, even if you lost at POPLA!

    Did they produce evidence of landowner authority?


    Thanks for your help. Yes, I know it was a bad appeal but I was hoping they would see commonsense. I saw the sign saying change was needed but the part about getting a ticket within 10 minutes or a £100 fine is in minuscule writing on the photo evidence they have produced.

    No, they did not produce any evidence of landowner authority.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    So you know EXACTLY WHY YOU WILL WIN! You know what to say in your comments.

    :)
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  • waribai
    waribai Posts: 140
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    So you know EXACTLY WHY YOU WILL WIN! You know what to say in your comments.

    :)


    Indeed you were right! Thanks for all your help. I must admit I was tempted to pay the fine to make it all go away but I'm glad I stuck with it. Please see the decision below:

    Decision Successful

    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator’s case is that the appellant failed to purchase parking.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant has provided a document to POPLA which outlines their grounds for appeal. These grounds are as follows: • Appeal refused without any substantive effort to reply. • Misleading and unclear signage. • No landowner authority or legal contract. • Lack of evidence proving the reliability of the ANPR system. • The images of the car were taken by an on-site APR surveillance camera that the driver was not made aware of. • The operator has not shown that the person who they are pursuing is in fact the driver. • Non complaint notice to keeper. Within this document, the appellant has provided photographs of the signs on site.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    Whilst I note that the appellant has raised more than one ground for appeal. I will focus solely on the concerns regarding landowner authority. The appellant has said that there is no evidence of landowner authority or a legal contract. Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice states that “if you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the land owner (or their appointed agent) … In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. The operator has failed to respond to this ground for appeal. Therefore, I cannot determine if the operator has permission from the landowner to operate on this land and issue PCN’s. As such, section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice has not been met and so, I will allow this appeal. Although the appellant has raised other grounds of appeal, as I have allowed the appeal on this reason alone, the other grounds do not require any further consideration. Whilst I note that the appellant has raised more than one ground for appeal. I will focus solely on the concerns regarding landowner authority. The appellant has said that there is no evidence of landowner authority or a legal contract. Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice states that “if you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the land owner (or their appointed agent) … In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. The operator has failed to respond to this ground for appeal. Therefore, I cannot determine if the operator has permission from the landowner to operate on this land and issue PCN’s. As such, section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice has not been met and so, I will allow this appeal. Although the appellant has raised other grounds of appeal, as I have allowed the appeal on this reason alone, the other grounds do not require any further consideration.
  • Paul_Kara
    Paul_Kara Posts: 12
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    A colleague has had the same issue at the same car park, do I simply copy and paste there wording?

    Thanks in advance

    :)
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,427
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    Paul_Kara wrote: »
    A colleague has had the same issue at the same car park, do I simply copy and paste there wording?
    Without knowing all the fine detail, that is probably not a good idea.

    Perhaps your colleague should read the NEWBIES thread and, if they still have unanswered questions, start their own thread.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    This is an 18 month old thread; no point in reading such old stuff.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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  • Paul_Kara
    Paul_Kara Posts: 12
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    This is an 18 month old thread; no point in reading such old stuff.

    Has the legislation changed that much then :think:
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