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  • blondmark
    Sue Ryanair ... Safely
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:43 PM.
    • topyam
    • By topyam 30th Jan 13, 3:26 PM
    • 190 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    topyam
    When Ryanair brings this kind of hopeless appeal under Irish law, it potentially exposes consumers who win against them to the threat of paying a chunk of Ryanair's costs of appeal (think 'five figures').

    I consider this tactic to be a dirty trick of the lowest kind, calculated to block consumer rights and prevent consumers who win their cases in Ireland from receiving a penny. Remember this is the airline that charges every consumer an unlawful 261/2004 levy.

    If your Irish judgment is appealed by Ryanair then firstly you have to fly over and attend the appeal in person where the entire case is re-heard in open court - but this time up against Ryanair top counsel (think 'stepping into the ring with Tyson').

    Secondly, under Irish law, you must pick up part of that hefty tab if the appeal succeeds. How lucky are you feeling now?

    I've raised Ryanair's disgraceful ploy of trampling on consumer rights with the UK European Consumer Centre, who couldn't have been more helpful.
    UK ECC hosted by the Trading Standards Institute | 1 Sylvan Court, Sylvan Way, Southfields Business Park, Basildon, Essex, SS15 6TH | T: +44 (0)8456 04 05 03 | F: +44 (0)8456 08 96 00 | E: ecc@tsi.org.uk | W: www.ukecc.net
    If you want to sue Ryanair there is a way, but first:

    1. Do not sue in Ireland - even under their small claims procedure.
    2. Steer well clear of the Irish courts - they are not your friend.
    3. In Eire the law couldn't be unfairer.

    Instead complete THIS FORM:

    Part 1. Court/Tribunal. Provided you're a consumer (not a business customer) you put the name of the English county court you are bringing your claim in. They will serve it for you in Ireland.

    Many English county courts are not yet up to speed with the European Small Claims Procedure - Form A - so you may have to show them this: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/judicialatlascivil/html/sc_courtsjurisd_en.jsp?countrySession=4&#statePage 0

    The claim can be documents-based, everything takes place in England and no hearing is required. Because it's an English claim, there are very limited grounds for Ryanair to appeal, there will not be a re-hearing if they do, and you will not be asked to contribute any costs to Ryanair's appeal. In short, Ryanair won't appeal.

    Under Part 3. the defendant's details are:

    Ryanair Limited
    Ryanair Corporate Head Office
    Dublin Airport
    Co Dublin
    Ireland

    Once you have a judgment, you will receive a certificate (European order for payment) that is valid in all the EU member states. You can then arrange with the Sheriff for Swords, Dublin to have it enforced, i.e. you send in the bailiffs.

    I won my previous claim against Ryanair in Ireland and they paid out in full as there were no grounds to appeal (not even spurious ones). However this time I'm going the English route.

    Today I received the standard Ryanair letter containing the usual nonsense "outside the control of the airline" so "extraordinary circumstances" and I responded here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/103648071/Ryanair-3-redacted.pdf

    Don't be put off suing Ryanair in England via the European Form A. Just make sure you have all your evidence together when they try on the inevitable "extraordinary circumstances" scam. Highlight every single point they raise in their defence and challenge each one.
    Originally posted by blondmark
    Useful - thanks - this refers to England - do you know what I do of I live in Northern Ireland?
    Also - Ryanair refused my claim on the basis that they had 'operational issues' which they said was extraordinary - that's all they said - can you advise what my response should include?
  • blondmark
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:43 PM.
  • panasonic1977
    Because Northern Ireland is part of the European Union, you can similarly complete Form A of the European Small Claims Procedure and file your claim in your local civil court (don't venture south of the border).

    My posting above links to my letter responding to Ryanair. You should respond along similar lines.

    Give them 14 days notice of proceedings and sue on the 14th day.
    Originally posted by blondmark

    as I posted earlier RA refused my claim and the Courts have asked me if I wish to take it to a full court hearing. Due to the cost involved for me to travel I was wondering if it would be possible for me to just leave this case and re-apply in the European small claims court ?

    This is one of the letters they sent to the court explaining EC:


    En route the first officers ND blanked and then returned followed by a Display Source message on each pilots PFD. After actioning the QRH we looked into the MEL dispatch requirements for a suspected DEU2 failure. The MEL gave us no scope to dispatch with a failed DEU so we attempted to relay a message via Porto Handling frequency to FR Operations and Maintrol. They were unable to get a message to Dublin and we ran out of radio range for OPO. We then tried the same message through FAO operations who had Maintrol on the phone for assistance. Maintrol requested that we divert to Madrid for further engineering assistance.
    We landed in Madrid without further incident. It had been decided already that we would change aircraft and continue the flight to TFS so we made our preparations to depart whilst the passengers were held on the bus. Everything ran smoothly and efficiently apart from getting the baggage transferred from the first aircraft. We landed at 1100z and despite repeated radio calls, communications with two different dispatchers and assistance from Ops in Dublin it took two hours for the bags to be brought across from the first aircraft. The dispatcher told me that even scheduled aircraft were having problems getting bags loaded due to baggage handling staff shortages...I assume this was true?!
    We departed for Tenerife, however not in time to be able to operate a third long sector due to duty hours limits. In TFS a standby crew arrived to operate the aircraft back to BHX.
  • blondmark
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:44 PM.
  • panasonic1977
    It's not entirely clear from this whether you've now issued proceedings and want to go a different route or whether proceedings were not issued because you are being told you have to attend court.

    If the latter, you are free to issue proceedings using Form A, but if you have already issued proceedings via another route, then it would be an abuse of process to pursue an identical cause of action via a different court system.
    Originally posted by blondmark
    I put in a claim to the small claims in Dublin, Ryan air said they would not agree to pay my claim so the courts Chief Clerk has asked me if I wish to proceed to a court hearing. I have not given any answer as yet.
  • blondmark
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:44 PM.
  • chickennugget
    Given that no litigation is guaranteed to succeed and no claim is without risk, both financial and emotional, then whether or not to see it through has to be a personal decision, and this is especially true where there is an overseas element involved. Perhaps this is what Ryanair counts on when lodging a hopeless appeal on grounds that have already been ruled against them by the ECJ, whose decisions are binding on all member states.

    The Irish equivalent of the CAB can speak to you on the phone and probably give you the kind of local feedback you're looking for, free of charge, and from their own experience. You'll find them at citizensinformation.ie.

    If they say that a written submission to the appeal is no greater potential risk of costs, however small, than non-attendance, then I'd be happy to draft your submission, if helpful.
    Originally posted by blondmark
    Blondmark, thanks for your advice and help. Your letter to Ryanair is superb and deserves a speedy out of court settlement! On your advice I've also emailed the European Trading Standards Institute tonight to say how disgusting it is that appeals don't need a reason in Ireland whereas they do in the UK etc. and the repercussions of this.

    You mentioned that you've taken RA to court in Ireland before and won, and that they had no grounds to appeal. Was this in relation to EC Reg 261/2004 or something else?

    Given that the small claims court is supposted to be a simple, cheap, straightforward way of getting justice, I'm appauled that the court didn't actually tell us (and I did ask) about the potential for costs if there's an appeal. I note that they seem to be doing this now though, but that's probably only because I have since contacted them about all this.

    I swing wildly between wanting to fight it all the way (because I still believe I'm right) and wanting to roll over and have done with it all. It has made me very cynical of the whole court process, particularly in Ireland.
  • blondmark
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:44 PM.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 31st Jan 13, 10:56 AM
    • 2,285 Posts
    • 875 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    FAQ's

    All blue words are links to relevant posts. Some are quoted just to save you doing that

    WARNING
    Claiming may not be a walk in the park. So research this (long) thread and the MSE article in order to discover useful information before you ask a question!

    Airline bust= no claim

    Anything from 17th Feb 2005 -you can claim but if the airline says no - you can't take them to court.

    Flight Stats

    Small claims time limit Its 6 years

    Package holiday flights ARE covered.


    Regulation261\2004

    MSE article corrected

    Technical fault with plane is NOT "extra ordinary circumstances" so you CAN claim
    Extraordinary circumstances + Extra ordinary Circumstances
    Technical issues
    More Technical issues with background

    Thomas Cook address
    Thomas cook incident Oct 26 2012

    KLM Claim form
    Ryanair address
    Ryanair Irish appeal explained - New!
    How to combat Ryanair using the English Court System New!
    BA Address
    BA complaint web-site

    BA forum explaining the regulation in plain english *ESSENTIAL READING*

    Jet airways address
    Compensation per person + Monarch email
    Monarch Claim form

    Centipede100 Template letter
    CAA Template letter


    Airline claims 2 years maximum to claim The UK time limit is 6 years, - that's the Law

    Judgement on 22nd NOV confirms the limit is whatever applies in the Country-UK is 6 years
    CAA Denied boarding
    Right to Care
    CAA contact details
    European small claims

    Original Sturgeon judgment giving rise to delay compensation:

    Legal challenge to Sturgeon judgment:

    MCOL : Link to the Court Forms
    Last edited by Mark2spark; 04-02-2013 at 4:33 PM.
  • chickennugget
    Interesting legal development in this area:

    http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2004966&c=setreg&region=2
  • blondmark
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:45 PM.
  • blondmark
    Hunt the "recent published opinions"
    This information has been redacted
    Last edited by blondmark; 05-11-2013 at 1:46 PM.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 1st Feb 13, 8:16 PM
    • 2,285 Posts
    • 875 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    Ha ha ha They really are a law unto themselves. Or think they are above the law.
    But people fly with them knowing this.
  • chickennugget
    "Recent published opinions..."
    Originally posted by blondmark
    Er, do they possibly mean "Recently published opinions"? And I love the way they just make stuff up as they go along.

    In the light of the volcanic ash ruling announced yesterday, who's feeling sorry for them today?!
    • Toe-Jam
    • By Toe-Jam 3rd Feb 13, 8:40 PM
    • 1,549 Posts
    • 576 Thanks
    Toe-Jam
    You've got rights to care as per the EU guidelines, ie a meal and refreshment after 2 hours depending on the length of journey/delay, or an overnight hotel if required, but there's no claim for delay compensation if the snow is the reason as per the AIRPORT saying so. Meaning that if other airlines are still flying, and the airport remains open, but Ryanair have CHOSEN to cancel then there's a different scenario.
    Originally posted by Mark2spark
    This is a very interesting point, I was at Stansted on 20th Jan and Ryanair delayed and eventually cancelled all services, but easyjet were still flying out.

    Have my claim in, am looking for refund on the return leg of my flight, and hotel and food costs for 1 night.

    They have written me a letter saying my claim had been "assessed" and passed to the finance department, but suspiciously left out if they were paying me the amount I requested in my claim"

    Waiting on cheque..so will see.
  • karenelainehughes
    Ryan Air rejected my claim as it's more than 2 years old
    Anyone got any ideas of how to word my next response to Ryan Air... just had a reply from them to my 'template copied' letter from MSE claiming compensation for a flight taken in July 2010 from Marakesh to Bristol that was over 3.5 hrs delayed. They are claiming their terms and conditions cover this delay and are quoting Article 35 of the Montreal Convention 1999 which also covers them for this. I'm guessing they're just trying this to get out of it.. anyone else had this response and what did you do next, be good to hear??? Thanks ....
  • sjcwhuk
    Ryanair cancelled due to snow
    Last year almost to the day, Ryanair cancelled my flight Alicante to Stansted with literally hours notice (we were just about to drive away in the car to the airport).

    This of course was because of snow in the UK and therefore Ryanair are claiming 'exceptional circumstances' and refusing to cough up.

    However, I have evidence of all flights in and out of Stansted for this day and the only cancelled flights were from Ryanair, all the other airlines operated (perhaps with delay).

    Is this good evidence that exceptional circumstances due to weather is not applicable with the airport open and other airlines operating.

    Others views would be appreciated before I push forward with this. I have already pointed out the airport was operating to Ryanair but of course they arent interested.

    Thanks,

    Steven
  • 2013competitions
    I am just writing my 4th letter to Ryanair. My opening paragraphs are:

    This is my 4th complaint letter to you asking for compensation.

    I am unhappy that your first reply dated 21/01/2013 stated I could not be compensated as my claim was over 2 years old, so I replied and proved that legally I am entitled to claim (please see the reasons in the body of this letter below). Then your second reply dated 30/01/2013 changed tactics and stated that I cannot claim compensation as the “flight was delayed for reasons outside of the control of the airline (extraordinary circumstances)”. So please tell me why I was given the “over 2 year” reason first, then when Ryanair realised I was right to claim, they devised yet another excuse not to pay?

    Please tell me what the extraordinary circumstances were?
    Please tell me the reason for my flight being delayed.

    I wonder what excuse they will come up with now after I have advised them of the press coverage of the ruling from 31/01/2013 as well as previously using some of the relevant information from post #61 above.

    I have to say, thank you so much to everyone who has posted on this forum/board as it really helped me to add to the template letters and personalise my responses.
    Since entering comps & applying for freebies from Jan 2013, so far I have received:
    The "Change for Life food smart meal mixer", Bebivita spoon, £5 prezzybox code, bepanthen sample, soft cups and an Atkins bar
    .
    Compared to some on here it is not much, but our family has used them. I'm so grateful to all who post on here.
  • Locodice
    Hi All,

    Trying to weigh up if its worthwhile to apply for compensation. We were due to fly out with Ryanair back in 2011. I have all documentation including cancellation email. The reason given for the flight being cancelled was 'adverse weather. This was at the same time as the ashcloud situation. There was 10 of us in total and we had to fly out from Manchester the next day.

    Any feedback welcome!
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