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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 4:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 4:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 4:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 193
    • gfplux
    • By gfplux 18th Jun 19, 3:15 PM
    • 4,686 Posts
    • 4,079 Thanks
    gfplux
    The UK price of the Model 3 is quite disappointing. Over £40k with tax for the base model. Remember when it was expected to come in well under £30k?

    Nissan is releasing the new 62kWh Leaf, available to order now. The 40kWh version is getting a refresh as well with a new battery. Sadly the rest of the car remains the same.
    Originally posted by mojo1
    What price will the new leafs come at. Thanks.
    There will be no Brexit dividend. "Brexit Blight of Uncertainty" sums it all up.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 18th Jun 19, 3:25 PM
    • 2,490 Posts
    • 3,596 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    There's still a lot of difficulty in getting information from manufacturers about their EV offerings, it seems. You'll know they've finally achieved the mass market with genuine competition when you start seeing the billboards with the PCP offers.


    The new Zoe has just been announced, (around 22k before grant I believe). Hopefully the older ones will become a little cheaper on the s/h market with more battery owned models. We live in hope.
    • gfplux
    • By gfplux 18th Jun 19, 3:28 PM
    • 4,686 Posts
    • 4,079 Thanks
    gfplux
    Some great photo’s of the new ZOE and with an impressive range (380k)
    I love the look of the interior which while my wife agreed she said that €24,000 (£21,000) for our future “small” second car was far too much.

    And she is right.

    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/new-renault-zoe-ev-supermini-i-pace-range
    There will be no Brexit dividend. "Brexit Blight of Uncertainty" sums it all up.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 18th Jun 19, 9:31 PM
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    Herzlos
    Even when you factor in the reduction in fuel costs, maintenance, etc?

    That's only about £3k more than a high base spec Clio which will cost a lot more in fuel.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 18th Jun 19, 10:05 PM
    • 23,463 Posts
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    AdrianC
    That's only about £3k more than a high base spec Clio which will cost a lot more in fuel.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    But the Clio starts <£13k list. Or maybe a <£11k Twingo will suffice.
    • gfplux
    • By gfplux 19th Jun 19, 6:07 AM
    • 4,686 Posts
    • 4,079 Thanks
    gfplux
    Even when you factor in the reduction in fuel costs, maintenance, etc?

    That's only about £3k more than a high base spec Clio which will cost a lot more in fuel.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    In our household we run two cars and every household is different and have different reasons for their choices.

    We have....

    A largish 4x4 which is a 3 month old petrol P200 S Auto AWD Jaguar E Pace which replaced a BMW X5 Diesel as we wanted to move away from diesel, downsize and take money off the table. The jaguar cost €43,550

    A small “town” car which is presently a petrol Fiat 500 which cost €16,000 8 years ago and has 45,000k on the clock. Very low running costs.

    It is our hope and intention to replace the Fiat by jumping over hybrid straight to plug in.

    HOWEVER there is a growing realisation at home that unless an attractive plug in becomes available at sub €20,000 we will choose to continue to run the Fiat up to 100,000 which will mean another 8 years BEFORE we are forced to make the change.

    We have always bought our cars new and therefore the second hand market is not going to interest us, at the moment.

    Perhaps all electric will not be viable for second cars for a long time.
    There will be no Brexit dividend. "Brexit Blight of Uncertainty" sums it all up.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 19th Jun 19, 6:16 AM
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    Herzlos
    That all seems pretty reasonable, EVs are likely too expensive for 2nd cars that don't do much mileage.
    What I think we're likely to do is demote the diesel to 2nd car status and replace it with an EV once a suitable one comes into budget. We usually buy about 3-5 years old and run until it's no longer viable or suitable.

    But the Clio starts <£13k list. Or maybe a <£11k Twingo will suffice.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Sure, and a 10 year old Clio can be bought for £1k. I'm trying to compare like for like and suspect the base Zoe is a lot higher spec than the base Clio.

    Edit: the £21k Zoe has the battery hire, so the real price is more like £24k. You'd need to do a bit of calculation to see if it's total cost of ownership is better. I dare say for anyone facing congestion charges it becomes cheaper than petrol pretty quickly.
    Last edited by Herzlos; 19-06-2019 at 6:26 AM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Jun 19, 6:29 AM
    • 8,685 Posts
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    Martyn1981
    Perhaps all electric will not be viable for second cars for a long time.
    Originally posted by gfplux
    I think you make good points for your household choices, but I'm not sure that last sentence is true as it applies more to your position of buying new, whereas for a city runabout / 2nd car, I'd have thought a secondhand BEV makes a great choice, and a way to dip your toes in the water first.

    For second cars in general, I think BEV's make possibly more sense, and could be more viable, especially if the second car becomes the first choice for most daily driving whenever range and possibly size isn't important.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 19th Jun 19, 6:33 AM
    • 23,463 Posts
    • 22,520 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Sure, and a 10 year old Clio can be bought for £1k. I'm trying to compare like for like and suspect the base Zoe is a lot higher spec than the base Clio.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    If that spec is needed or particularly wanted, and isn't actually just a load of brochureguff that's there to justify a high price in a head-to-head comparison.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 19th Jun 19, 6:52 AM
    • 9,802 Posts
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    Herzlos
    If that spec is needed or particularly wanted, and isn't actually just a load of brochureguff that's there to justify a high price in a head-to-head comparison.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    There's definitely a market for a very low frills EV, like a Dacia Sandero.
    Presumably the EVs are still aimed at luxury users but will change at some point.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 19th Jun 19, 12:22 PM
    • 2,490 Posts
    • 3,596 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    There's definitely a market for a very low frills EV, like a Dacia Sandero.
    Presumably the EVs are still aimed at luxury users but will change at some point.
    Originally posted by Herzlos

    Luxury users, or company car drivers? Even when I was a rather unambitious systems analyst I never achieved the heady heights of a company car and have always had a very practical (cheapskate!) approach to motoring. When I hear of people complaining about 'poverty specs' I'm just 'meh', so a Sandero type car would be fine by me. But I am hoping for more widespread fleet adoption and a subsequently better supplied second-hand market.



    More models with provision for tow bars and roof racks would also help widen the appeal.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 20th Jun 19, 6:23 AM
    • 8,685 Posts
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    Martyn1981
    Tesla At Least 4–5 Years Ahead Of Competition — According To German Auto Industry Expert

    I suspect the fightback has begun in Germany, and the Zoe50 package is getting a lot of praise, so France is doing well too.

    Not sure about Japan, Toyota is still pushing 'self-charging' electric vehicles but are bringing their BEV plans forward.

    All good news, I think.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • mojo1
    • By mojo1 20th Jun 19, 4:11 PM
    • 931 Posts
    • 330 Thanks
    mojo1
    What price will the new leafs come at. Thanks.
    Originally posted by gfplux
    If you ask around you can get one for around £33k. CarWow or try a few dealers.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 20th Jun 19, 9:58 PM
    • 9,802 Posts
    • 9,328 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Luxury users, or company car drivers?
    Originally posted by silverwhistle

    Both, I guess. Luxury buyers are generally the early adopters (like the Tesla S), then the fleet drivers when they become cheaper, then eventually mass market. We're still at the point where the EV offerings are the highest spec in the range, but I don't think it'll be long until we're seeing base spec models with EV powertrains.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 21st Jun 19, 6:10 AM
    • 344 Posts
    • 353 Thanks
    gzoom
    In our household we run two cars and every household is different and have different reasons for their choices.

    We have....

    A largish 4x4 which is a 3 month old petrol P200 S Auto AWD Jaguar E Pace which replaced a BMW X5 Diesel as we wanted to move away from diesel, downsize and take money off the table. The jaguar cost €43,550

    A small “town” car which is presently a petrol Fiat 500 which cost €16,000 8 years ago and has 45,000k on the clock. Very low running costs.

    It is our hope and intention to replace the Fiat by jumping over hybrid straight to plug in.
    Originally posted by gfplux
    Like you I cannot get the man maths to work on replacing the second family car with an EV, at sub 6K per year on a fully owned reliable car no new EV can come close to absolutely ownership costs.

    BUT its not the small second car you should replace with an EV, its the €43k E pace!!

    Model Y will be out next year, it will have much more utility than an E pace, and will even be offered in 7 seater config. Pricing will start at €40-45k, and range will be same as our 75D X, which has now done 35k in just over 2 years!!

    I suspect you may be worried about EV range, but unless your really doing 200 miles+ non stop trips regularly range isn't an issue.

    We've just done a 430 mile road trip around the English Lake District, stopped only twice, once the drive up and once drive home, these stops would have happened even in a petrol car to brake up a 3 hr motorway trip.

    Family roads trips in the EV is so easy we are planning UK to Norway next year, and am still working on my wife for Lake Como - one comprise is she and the rest of the family files, and I drive to met them there!!
    • gfplux
    • By gfplux 21st Jun 19, 1:30 PM
    • 4,686 Posts
    • 4,079 Thanks
    gfplux
    Like you I cannot get the man maths to work on replacing the second family car with an EV, at sub 6K per year on a fully owned reliable car no new EV can come close to absolutely ownership costs.

    BUT its not the small second car you should replace with an EV, its the €43k E pace!!

    Model Y will be out next year, it will have much more utility than an E pace, and will even be offered in 7 seater config. Pricing will start at €40-45k, and range will be same as our 75D X, which has now done 35k in just over 2 years!!

    I suspect you may be worried about EV range, but unless your really doing 200 miles+ non stop trips regularly range isn't an issue.

    We've just done a 430 mile road trip around the English Lake District, stopped only twice, once the drive up and once drive home, these stops would have happened even in a petrol car to brake up a 3 hr motorway trip.

    Family roads trips in the EV is so easy we are planning UK to Norway next year, and am still working on my wife for Lake Como - one comprise is she and the rest of the family files, and I drive to met them there!!
    Originally posted by gzoom

    You could have a point and the next few years will tell.
    We might even drop to one car in due course as we live in a country where public transport will be free from March 1st 2020 which might mean we don’t need a city car and will need only one car for medium to long journeys.
    There will be no Brexit dividend. "Brexit Blight of Uncertainty" sums it all up.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 21st Jun 19, 3:37 PM
    • 7,316 Posts
    • 7,188 Thanks
    DoaM
    Originally posted by BetterCenturyTom
    Spam posts with links to other sites (that you are affiliated with) aren't allowed.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 22nd Jun 19, 6:31 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Tesla are number 1 in the US.

    Or to be precise TSLA is number 1, as the value of their shares that have been shorted has now overtaken Apple, at approx $10bn. And for comparison, as Apple is worth about 30x more than Tesla, shorted shares represent approx 1% of Apple, and just shy of 35% for Tesla.

    I'm a bit wary of calling out 'conspiracy theory', but something very odd is going on here, as even with the share price down 30-50%, shorting continues ....... so is 'outside' money being used, such as big oil, to reduce the shareprice and thereby slow down expansion?

    Anyways, time to put my money where my mouth is and invest in Tesla - since I strongly believe in EV's, and the need to decarbonize the transport sector, and personally think Tesla has, and is driving this forward faster than it otherwise would.

    So I've bought some shares ...... how bad can it get so fingers crossed for a short squeeze.

    I may be wrong, but I think any and all expansion of BEV offerings and sales will be a good thing for Tesla, since competition will eat into ICE sales, not Tesla sales, and prove the concept for those doubting companies that are going down that route.

    Fun times ahead.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Kentish Dave
    • By Kentish Dave 22nd Jun 19, 7:21 AM
    • 444 Posts
    • 715 Thanks
    Kentish Dave
    How does a low share price going to slow down expansion?

    I’m feeling some regret about my new Model S purchase at the moment, it has just too many problems and any spirited driving at all sees the range drop below 200 miles.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 23rd Jun 19, 6:18 AM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    How does a low share price going to slow down expansion?

    I’m feeling some regret about my new Model S purchase at the moment, it has just too many problems and any spirited driving at all sees the range drop below 200 miles.
    Originally posted by Kentish Dave
    The value of a company will impact on the amount of money they can borrow, and the rate at which they can borrow it.

    Think of a simple personal example - you've got a great idea for a new business and plan to borrow the capital against your house. If the value of your house halved, you wouldn't be able to borrow as much, and might have to pay a higher rate too. But your house hasn't changed, only its paper value.

    Aside from selling more shares to raise investment capital, Tesla's lower market capitalization (market cap) will impact on their 'normal' business borrowing, and also on external funding, since they now have less value to back up borrowing, and there's also the most recent share action (large drop) that will weigh on the minds of potential lenders/investors.

    What's interesting to see with Tesla is the direct correlation between share price and share shorting.

    The year started with a share price of about $340 and about 26m shares shorted. The number of shorted shares has risen steadily to around 46m, and the share price fell steadily to around $180, before rising during June to about $220.

    If you'd shorted Tesla at $300+, then $180 would be a great price to close your position at (shorting involves borrowing shares at a very low interest rate, perhaps 1%, then selling them, before buying some back at a lower price to return them).

    Interestingly, Tesla shorting has continued despite June's share price pushback, which seems to fly in the face of normal shorting, and might suggest outside monies trying to push Tesla even further down. The value of shorted Tesla shares is around $10bn, whilst 'big oil' makes around $200bn per month. So if the shorting is to hurt the company, not to make money, then it could be a good investment if it slows down BEV deployment.

    TBF much of this is conspiracy theory, and hence why I used to be doubtful, but things have gone to such an extreme that one has to wonder if outside forces are being applied.

    The best situation for Tesla (and my share holding) would be a short squeeze - this is when the share price actually rises and some shorts decide to close their position (buy shares), this pushes the price up higher and faster, and more shorts have to rush to buy shares, causing a rapid spiralling up of the share price. This was seen about 10yrs ago when VW was shorted, and when this was spotted a squeeze forced a five fold increase in their share price.

    But would there be a short squeeze this time, if the shorter's aren't worried about the losses, so don't rush to close their position in a race against other shorts?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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