Public sector wellcome to the real world

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  • roysterer
    roysterer Posts: 127 Forumite
    Mr_K wrote: »
    Why do a certain section of society hate anybody that works in the public sector ? Is it jealousy because they've chosen higher paid jobs that contribute nothing to society and have failed to make adequate pension provision ? Yes the public sector pension's are reasonable. Granted, a few at the very top do very well but they'll will be the ones to be least affected by this. The vast majority are on low wages with a pension of less than £5k . The private sector caused this crisis (i.e banks) who are still paying themselves massive bonuses.

    Longer lifespans will mean pension reform for everyone. What's being proposed however is overly vindictive, for the sake of it, on those that can least afford it. It will backfire when nobody wants to work in the public sector any longer. No health service, no police, no service provided in where there isn't a profit involved. This is turning into a horrible country to live in.

    Contribute nothing to society, take your blindfold off.
    Engineers in the private sector design and build most of the equipment used hospitals to improve the quality of life for many.
    Who built the house you live in? who designed and built the car you drive, who built the aeroplane you fly in to go on holiday, who designed and built computers to improve our lives.
    The Private sector does not start and end in banking?
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103
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    moggitymog wrote: »
    I work as a nurse for the NHS, the main reason I remained in the NHS for the last 12 years is because of the pension, no need to bother now, lets hope everyone doesn't leave as that will be the time when the government start to sell it off
    It's a negative change but still leaves those in the public sector better off than the rest.
    Mr_K wrote: »
    Why do a certain section of society hate anybody that works in the public sector ? Is it jealousy because they've chosen higher paid jobs that contribute nothing to society and have failed to make adequate pension provision ?
    Those in the public sector chose to get both the higher paying jobs - for the same education level and work type - and the better than current pension provision.
    Mr_K wrote: »
    The vast majority are on low wages with a pension of less than £5k .
    You might want to take a look at how much a private sector employee would need to accumulate to get a pension of that size with 3% inflation protection and no spouse benefit:

    Male 65: £103,000 Female: £116,000
    Male 60: £120,000 Female: £132,000

    Those levels are far above the average value of annuities purchased by private sector retirees.
    Mr_K wrote: »
    What's being proposed however is overly vindictive, for the sake of it, on those that can least afford it.
    The tax payers are the ones who can no longer afford it. The private sector tax payers have already made these changes and all the public sector plans are doing is getting a little closer to what's already happened in the private sector. To get even closer, do away with the final or average salary pension completely and get employer matching up to a generous 6% of income for a money purchase pension. If you think an employer match of 6% is bad, welcome to the world of the private sector and count your blessings.

    It doesn't make sense, and can't be justified to the private sector part of the electorate, to have those in the private sector paying for pension benefits for public sector workers that are so far above private sector levels while also paying the public sector workers more for the same level of education and work being done.

    It's negative change. It's also inevitable as part of adapting to longer lives, which is a substantial part of what forced the changes in the private sector already.
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865
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    the answer of course is to abolish the public sector where ever possible; so pensions wouldn't be an issue as taxpayers wouldn't be paying for them

    why are teachers employed by the state?
    why are doctors or nurses?
    hospitals, clinics etc?
    all housing in the private sector
    care homes?
    motorways?
    obviously trains and transport generally

    no real reason why fire services are provided by the state; they could simply be paid for on a fire by fire basis

    police and the armed forces we should probably keep

    universities will all be private in a few years anyway so no probnlem there

    fortunately banks, insurance, gas, water, electricity, food, airport services are already provided cheaply within the private sector so no problems there

    problem solved : taxpayers won't be paying for public sector pensions anymore except for a very small number (including PMs of course)


    I commend this to you all

    think outside the box
  • swanny65
    swanny65 Posts: 336
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    roysterer wrote: »
    Swanny,
    In my post I should have added that 2 years ago when the rules changed to career average for existing members, all New Starters would have to contribute to a deffined Contribution (annuity type pension) making a 4% contribution matched by the employers 4%.
    What sort of pension will that buy in 40yrs time?????? my guess is PEANUTS.
    If you dont mind me asking how many hours do you work in both of your jobs?
    or have you got 2 part time jobs?

    roysterer

    Full Time Civil Servant. Variable private sector job around 10 hrs pw on average, was 25 hrs pw before the credit crunch.

    Briefly regarding your initial point. Any new employee with your employer can weight up whether that scheme makes the difference in taking up the position or not but they know from day one what to expect. The problem with moving the civil service pension goalposts is people may not have time to make the necessary financial adjustments.

    Off topic a bit, but in 1990 i started paying AVC's so I have a small additional fund to help me out but I guess i am in a very small minority.

    My father, a farm labourer, was 60 when I, the eldest of 3, was born. No pension, no government handouts, my mother had to go out to work. As a result when i started work i didn't want a retirement like my father had......
  • I've worked in both public and private sectors and the best pension I had was in the private sector. Getting a bit sick of the public sector bashing as not all public servants are equal!
    From Starrystarrynight to Starrystarrynight1 and now I'm back...don't have a clue how!
  • real1314
    real1314 Posts: 4,432 Forumite
    jamesd wrote: »
    it's a negative change but still leaves those in the public sector better off than the rest.

    Those in the public sector chose to get both the higher paying jobs - for the same education level and work type - and the better than current pension provision.

    so why didn't you get a job in the public sector? It seems an odd thing to complain that someone else made intelligent choices therefore they should have the benefits of their choice taken away.

    you might want to take a look at how much a private sector employee would need to accumulate to get a pension of that size with 3% inflation protection and no spouse benefit:

    Male 65: £103,000 female: £116,000
    male 60: £120,000 female: £132,000

    those levels are far above the average value of annuities purchased by private sector retirees.

    private pension of what size? You're not going off gove's gibberish are you? He quotes a salary of £23.5k and then a pension of £15k, but all the civil service classic pensions are half-salary, therefore he's inflated the pension by 28%.

    or is it the £5k you resent, seriously? £5k is something you're going to argue about when someone made provision by choosing the right job?

    the tax payers are the ones who can no longer afford it. The private sector tax payers have already made these changes and all the public sector plans are doing is getting a little closer to what's already happened in the private sector. To get even closer, do away with the final or average salary pension completely and get employer matching up to a generous 6% of income for a money purchase pension. If you think an employer match of 6% is bad, welcome to the world of the private sector and count your blessings.

    so, get a job in the public sector. It's a simple choice, why don't you make it if it such a dazzlingly great set of pay and conditions?

    it doesn't make sense, and can't be justified to the private sector part of the electorate, to have those in the private sector paying for pension benefits for public sector workers that are so far above private sector levels while also paying the public sector workers more for the same level of education and work being done.

    maybe if private sector emplyees had taken the time to ensure that their pension contributions were properly invested, supported by management contributions, and had campaigned against the tory "contribution holidays" in the 80s and the labour "pension taxes" in the 90s, you might not be so badly off?
    if you don't bother fighting for your pension and see it eroded, why should i suffer the same fate - back to making intelligent decisions again?

    it's negative change. It's also inevitable as part of adapting to longer lives, which is a substantial part of what forced the changes in the private sector already.

    aye, it's good to see the average worker taking a pension hit. Funny thing is, company directors pay rises outstrip average workers rises in the private sector. I bet they aren't taking a pension hit. How much did fred goodwin get?
    and now they've got their employees seething at the public sector. You have to admire the way they manipulate their workforce to divert attention away from their own snouts in the trough. :cool:

    why didn't you get a job in the public sector if it's so damn good / easy / well paid / etc etc etc?
  • swanny65
    swanny65 Posts: 336
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    CLAPTON wrote: »
    the answer of course is to abolish the public sector where ever possible; so pensions wouldn't be an issue as taxpayers wouldn't be paying for them

    why are teachers employed by the state?
    why are doctors or nurses?
    hospitals, clinics etc?
    all housing in the private sector
    care homes?
    motorways?
    obviously trains and transport generally

    no real reason why fire services are provided by the state; they could simply be paid for on a fire by fire basis

    police and the armed forces we should probably keep

    universities will all be private in a few years anyway so no probnlem there

    fortunately banks, insurance, gas, water, electricity, food, airport services are already provided cheaply within the private sector so no problems there

    problem solved : taxpayers won't be paying for public sector pensions anymore except for a very small number (including PMs of course)


    I commend this to you all

    think outside the box

    Clapton

    I think you need to be put in a box !!!

    Southern Cross - who will be picking up the tab for a private sector !!!! up when it goes down the tubes few months or should we leave the old folk on the street to fend for themselves? I wonder how much the directors are paying themselves at this month, bleeding the company dry before putting it in administration.

    Do you really want an American health service?

    Housing is moving to the private sector but only because Housing Associations have stepped in and Government legislation forcing developers to build affordable housing. Agreed the Government has a few decent ideas regarding social housing eg moving people for large houses to smaller properties when they no longer need a large home, taking away social housing from high earners etc

    No need for a Retirement Pension or Benefits in Clapton world as the private sector will provide insurance for everything. Lets go back to the 1930's and reopen the workhouses
  • chris_m
    chris_m Posts: 8,250
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    Mr_K wrote: »
    The private sector caused this crisis (i.e banks) who are still paying themselves massive bonuses.

    Whilst folly in some banking areas (i.e. retail banking, not investment banking which is where much of the media-maligned bonuses are paid and deservedly so because they continued to perform well) contributed towards the overall economic doldrums in which we currently find ourselves, they did not cause the gross government overspending of the 13 years prior to last May which resulted in the huge deficit that needs to be reduced, nor did they cause the significant extension in life expectancy which needs pension schemes altered to be able to address it.

    Still, as always, the banks are an easy target so let's blame them. Yes, there was a lot of (IMO) irresponsible lending but that can only have happened if there was corresponding irresponsible borrowing - which there was because of the "I want it and I want it NOW, whether I can afford it or not" attitude that has evolved over the last couple of decades.
  • firesidemaid
    firesidemaid Posts: 2,129
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    i'm sure this doesn't apply to everyone, but a lot of us in the nhs put in way more hours and effort than we are paid for because we love and are proud of what we do - which is to provide the best service we possibly can in terms of quality, efficiency and evidence-based practice. :)
  • C_Mababejive
    C_Mababejive Posts: 11,647
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    roysterer wrote: »
    What is happening today regarding Public Sector Pensions and contributions is what has already happened in the Private Sector.
    Final salary Pensions are now gone forever!!!!!!! as much as we all dislike it.

    2 years ago I went from a 5% Contribution 1/60th Final Salary scheme to a 10% Contribution 1/60th Career Average Pension.
    This was non negotiable take it or leave it. So I guess the proposals put forward today are not so bad after all.

    .
    So because you lost out/got shafted,you want the same for everyone else? Isnt that just pure envy?
    Feudal Britain needs land reform. 70% of the land is "owned" by 1 % of the population and at least 50% is unregistered (inherited by landed gentry). Thats why your slave box costs so much..
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