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  • FIRST POST
    • keepthelinguini
    • By keepthelinguini 9th Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 3Thanks
    keepthelinguini
    High Income Child Benefit Charge
    • #1
    • 9th Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    High Income Child Benefit Charge 9th Aug 17 at 2:42 PM
    I'm so annoyed. I've just received a big bill from HMRC and been told I'm going to pay a penalty, and I think it's completely unjust.

    I'm a PAYE employee.

    In 2013 when the High Income Child Benefit Charge was introduced I earned under the £50,000 threshold - so the change in rules didn't apply to me.

    Since then my income has gone slightly over £50,000.

    I've just received a bill for well over £1k for missed HICBC in the two years ending 2015 and 2016. I called them to query, and they said I should have registered for self assessment when my income went over £50k, and that I'll be charged a penalty on top of the amount I owe - around £250 - for failing to notify them.

    HOW was I supposed to know I need to start filling out a tax return when my income went above £50k?

    I'm planning to appeal the penalty, but the lady in the call centre told me that it would fail because you can't claim ignorance of the rules.

    IT'S SO UNJUST!

    If anyone has any advice, I'd be very pleased to hear it.
Page 3
    • Toddy2
    • By Toddy2 24th Oct 17, 2:15 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Toddy2
    Your pension contribution is a bit confusing! You stated that it was to a personal pension but also mention that you have changed employers. To clarify, was the pension contribution taken via the payroll or did you pay the pension company directly?
    Originally posted by MichelleUK
    Just spoke to them on the phone today and employee occupational contributions don't count. Although mine was set up as a SIPP and administered by an outside organisation (Hargreaves Lansdowne) and made contributions through my payroll. I have since transferred this into a Local Government pension (my new employer). Not much evidence to provide them with.

    It's not helped that I had 3 employers that tax year! One has my income way too high on the P60, this one didn't come with a company car and I believe they have my 45p per mileage claims as part of this income.

    All a bit of a mess and difficult for me to challenge their findings.

    I feel for everyone who has to pay, and feel your pain. I need to pay mine by 20th November - thanks HMRC just before Christmas!
    • paye
    • By paye 31st Oct 17, 1:27 AM
    • 334 Posts
    • 290 Thanks
    paye
    You know something, this is the first time I've heard about the CB changes after reading this thread. Like many have said, I don't remember any media awareness of this, I also didn't receive any reminder letters from HMRC advising me of this.

    I've never filed a self assessment form in my life.
    The whole system is screwed up

    How much would My tax liability be based on my earning below with two children?

    April 2015-April 2016 I earned £48k.

    April 2016- April 2017 I earned £62,695.00

    May 2017 to presant still receving child benefit.

    Not sure if I should wait for them to contact me or just cancel the payments.

    Can they adjust my tax code so they can collect the tax owed directly through PAYE?
    Save Save Save

    SPC 593 paye
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 31st Oct 17, 2:02 AM
    • 7,597 Posts
    • 12,729 Thanks
    dori2o
    You know something, this is the first time I've heard about the CB changes after reading this thread. Like many have said, I don't remember any media awareness of this, I also didn't receive any reminder letters from HMRC advising me of this.

    I've never filed a self assessment form in my life.
    The whole system is screwed up

    How much would My tax liability be based on my earning below with two children?

    April 2015-April 2016 I earned £48k.

    April 2016- April 2017 I earned £62,695.00

    May 2017 to presant still receving child benefit.

    Not sure if I should wait for them to contact me or just cancel the payments.

    Can they adjust my tax code so they can collect the tax owed directly through PAYE?
    Originally posted by paye
    You need to contact HMRC to tell them you are the higher earner, with an income over £50k, and in a household that receives ChB.

    It is your responsibility to do this and you are already late doing so (within 6 months of the end of the tax year). If you wait for HMRC to contact you about it you risk facing a fine of upto 100% of the tax due from your calculation (failure to notify).

    For 15/16 there is no Higher Income Child Benefit Charge.

    16/17, if you have nothing available to reduce your applicable income then the HICBC will be the equivalent of 100% of the child benefit received.

    You will HAVE TO do a tax return for that year.

    So long as your tax return is submitted online before 30/12/17 and the tax due is less than £3000 then you may be able to have it collected through your tax code from 6/4/18.

    Quickest way to resolve this is to go to Gov. Uk and search for Register and File Self Assessment., then select the link to register for self assessment. Register, then read the information regarding how to file the tax return online.

    You can if you wish continue to receive child benefit, you would have to pay the charge each year however should your income stay the same. If you'd prefer to cancel then it has to be done by the ChB claimant.

    HMRC are under no obligation to 'inform' you of the rules regarding child benefit. The Gov. Uk website contains all the info necessary.

    The responsibility to ensure that you are paying the correct tax rests with each individual.

    I'll say again, people need to start understanding the basics of tax as changes to the way tax is administered are coming and almost all will involve putting each person in control of their own taxes.

    Each person will soon be expected to manage their own tax affairs online (whether you are employed or self employed), just as you manage your banking online, you'll be expected to 'self serve' by setting up your online Personal Tax Account. In the near future it's likely HMRC staff will not be able to update your records over the phone where the option to make the changes online exists.
    Last edited by dori2o; 31-10-2017 at 2:07 AM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 31st Oct 17, 8:40 AM
    • 1,716 Posts
    • 2,318 Thanks
    badmemory
    Please note that you can still get the NI credit if a child is under 12, therefore if you go the cancellation route make sure you only cancel the payment, not the whole claim.

    It must provoke some interesting conversations in some households when the claimant refuses to cancel the claim! I also wonder how many claims don't get cancelled because the partner has absolutely no idea their partner earns over £50k.
    Last edited by badmemory; 31-10-2017 at 8:45 AM.
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 31st Oct 17, 9:53 AM
    • 6,517 Posts
    • 6,078 Thanks
    00ec25
    Please note that you can still get the NI credit if a child is under 12, therefore if you go the cancellation route make sure you only cancel the payment, not the whole claim.

    It must provoke some interesting conversations in some households when the claimant refuses to cancel the claim! I also wonder how many claims don't get cancelled because the partner has absolutely no idea their partner earns over £50k.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    LOL, I personally know of one case where the wife told the husband she will continue to collect the payment thank you very much, but the husband can repay it from "his" income. The husband took the view that it was "safer" to acquiesce...
    • paye
    • By paye 31st Oct 17, 8:55 PM
    • 334 Posts
    • 290 Thanks
    paye
    You need to contact HMRC to tell them you are the higher earner, with an income over £50k, and in a household that receives ChB.

    It is your responsibility to do this and you are already late doing so (within 6 months of the end of the tax year). If you wait for HMRC to contact you about it you risk facing a fine of upto 100% of the tax due from your calculation (failure to notify).

    For 15/16 there is no Higher Income Child Benefit Charge.

    16/17, if you have nothing available to reduce your applicable income then the HICBC will be the equivalent of 100% of the child benefit received.

    You will HAVE TO do a tax return for that year.

    So long as your tax return is submitted online before 30/12/17 and the tax due is less than £3000 then you may be able to have it collected through your tax code from 6/4/18.

    Quickest way to resolve this is to go to Gov. Uk and search for Register and File Self Assessment., then select the link to register for self assessment. Register, then read the information regarding how to file the tax return online.

    You can if you wish continue to receive child benefit, you would have to pay the charge each year however should your income stay the same. If you'd prefer to cancel then it has to be done by the ChB claimant.

    HMRC are under no obligation to 'inform' you of the rules regarding child benefit. The Gov. Uk website contains all the info necessary.

    The responsibility to ensure that you are paying the correct tax rests with each individual.

    I'll say again, people need to start understanding the basics of tax as changes to the way tax is administered are coming and almost all will involve putting each person in control of their own taxes.

    Each person will soon be expected to manage their own tax affairs online (whether you are employed or self employed), just as you manage your banking online, you'll be expected to 'self serve' by setting up your online Personal Tax Account. In the near future it's likely HMRC staff will not be able to update your records over the phone where the option to make the changes online exists.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    Hi,

    Thank for your post much appreciated. I will get the ball rolling in sorting this out tomorrow.

    Save Save Save

    SPC 593 paye
    • paye
    • By paye 31st Oct 17, 8:59 PM
    • 334 Posts
    • 290 Thanks
    paye
    Please note that you can still get the NI credit if a child is under 12, therefore if you go the cancellation route make sure you only cancel the payment, not the whole claim.

    It must provoke some interesting conversations in some households when the claimant refuses to cancel the claim! I also wonder how many claims don't get cancelled because the partner has absolutely no idea their partner earns over £50k.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    Funny you mentioned this, I asked my sister about this and she was convienced that she and her partner didn't receive CB for their two kids. But after speaking with her partner it appears they also been receiving the benefit. They didn;t know about the tax changes either.

    My sister partner been earning over £50k before 2013.
    Last edited by paye; 31-10-2017 at 9:01 PM.
    Save Save Save

    SPC 593 paye
    • unkle
    • By unkle 31st Oct 17, 9:33 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    unkle
    Funny you mentioned this, I asked my sister about this and she was convienced that she and her partner didn't receive CB for their two kids. But after speaking with her partner it appears they also been receiving the benefit. They didn;t know about the tax changes either.

    My sister partner been earning over £50k before 2013.
    Originally posted by paye
    I think lot of people are in this boat.

    Rather generic here, but in a lot of instances it is the 'wife' who receive the benefit and the 'husband' who has the income above the 50/60k.

    The craziest thing about it all is that neither HMRC or the benefit office, due to data protection, can actually tell the 'husband whether the 'wife' is receiving the benefit or not, only that she is entitled to receive it.

    So you have to complete your tax return on the basis of someone's say so, the same someone who even if you are married you have no legal right to know about their finances!
    • Tony p
    • By Tony p 10th Nov 17, 9:20 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Tony p
    Same thing here. HMRC are an absolute disgrace. All you get is legalise, mambo jumbo, subversion and threats in letters. It's impossible to get through to them on the phone line. They have flat out refused to acknowledge my queries and concern or any culpability for confusing, convoluted lop-sided system. I for one refuse to be bullied. They're not getting a penny out of me until they ackowledge and address the issues. And for those saying your responsibility etc etc, you are nothing but brainwashed indoctrinated idiots, the wet dream of the elite who actively avoid tax because your spineless and fearful parts who'll pick up the bill for them. Grow a set
    • unkle
    • By unkle 10th Nov 17, 9:28 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    unkle
    I'd love to hear of anyone who has actually been able to get information as to whether (or not) their partner is receiving the benefit. I don't believe they can.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 10th Nov 17, 11:07 PM
    • 25,599 Posts
    • 15,128 Thanks
    xylophone
    I'd love to hear of anyone who has actually been able to get information as to whether (or not) their partner is receiving the benefit. I don't believe they can.
    https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-tax-charge/pay-the-charge

    If you can!!!8217;t get information from your partner or ex-partner


    You can write to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to ask whether your partner or ex-partner gets Child Benefit or has a higher adjusted net income than you. HMRC will reply !!!8216;yes!!!8217; or !!!8216;no!!!8217; - they won!!!8217;t give you any financial information.

    You can only ask for this information if you and your partner either live together, or separated within the tax year you want information for.
    • jimmo
    • By jimmo 10th Nov 17, 11:56 PM
    • 1,947 Posts
    • 2,392 Thanks
    jimmo
    I'd love to hear of anyone who has actually been able to get information as to whether (or not) their partner is receiving the benefit. I don't believe they can.
    Originally posted by unkle
    I(we) must be terribly old fashioned. When we married my wife and I made some vows and took them seriously. With a little bit of common sense, I already know exactly when she was entitled to receive child benefits and we both know roughly how much we each earn. If either of us wants or needs more accurate information we can ask each other. We don't need the government to be a middleman in our relationship.
    • Wayne O Mac
    • By Wayne O Mac 11th Nov 17, 1:37 PM
    • 220 Posts
    • 269 Thanks
    Wayne O Mac
    Same thing here. HMRC are an absolute disgrace. All you get is legalise, mambo jumbo, subversion and threats in letters. It's impossible to get through to them on the phone line. They have flat out refused to acknowledge my queries and concern or any culpability for confusing, convoluted lop-sided system. I for one refuse to be bullied. They're not getting a penny out of me until they ackowledge and address the issues. And for those saying your responsibility etc etc, you are nothing but brainwashed indoctrinated idiots, the wet dream of the elite who actively avoid tax because your spineless and fearful parts who'll pick up the bill for them. Grow a set
    Originally posted by Tony p
    I was on HMRC's side until I heard they'd legalised mambo jumbo.

    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, person-who-totally-hasn't-been-drinking!
    • unkle
    • By unkle 11th Nov 17, 2:38 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    unkle
    https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-tax-charge/pay-the-charge

    If you can’t get information from your partner or ex-partner


    You can write to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to ask whether your partner or ex-partner gets Child Benefit or has a higher adjusted net income than you. HMRC will reply ‘yes’ or ‘no’ - they won’t give you any financial information.

    You can only ask for this information if you and your partner either live together, or separated within the tax year you want information for.
    Originally posted by xylophone
    Thats interesting as a few years ago they were unable to tell me if my wife actually did or didn't receive the benefit only if she was entitled to receive it, nor could they say who was the higher earner.
    • unkle
    • By unkle 11th Nov 17, 2:41 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    unkle
    I(we) must be terribly old fashioned. When we married my wife and I made some vows and took them seriously. With a little bit of common sense, I already know exactly when she was entitled to receive child benefits and we both know roughly how much we each earn. If either of us wants or needs more accurate information we can ask each other. We don't need the government to be a middleman in our relationship.
    Originally posted by jimmo
    You don't have to be married or have taken vows to receive child benefit

    I was somewhat playing devils advocate, in that more often than not the higher earner isn't the one who receives the benefit or has any say if the benefit is claimed or not. When I last enquired (granted was 18+ months ago) HMRC could not tell me if I needed to pay it as they couldn't tell me if my wife received child benefit or not, only that she was entitled to.......
    • mdearlove
    • By mdearlove 17th Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    mdearlove
    Also ignorant..
    There must be a lot of us ignorant people around being caught out by this. I got a letter out of the blue this morning for what will ultimately mean repaying £5k plus a 20% penalty for year 1, 10% for year 2. Year 3 will need a self assessment form doing.

    The penalties are the minimum required due to them assessing that it was not intentional.

    Now on the phone to see if I can offset it with tax relief based on personal pension contributions which I am due apparently. Who knew!
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 17th Nov 17, 11:39 AM
    • 25,599 Posts
    • 15,128 Thanks
    xylophone
    Now on the phone to see if I can offset it with tax relief based on personal pension contributions which I am due apparently.
    Do you mean that you had no idea that as a higher rate tax payer you could claim additional relief on pension contributions?

    Surely your pension provider had given some information on this point?

    Had you thought of increasing your pension contributions?

    http://www.pruadviser.co.uk/content/knowledge/technical-centre/child_benefit_trap/
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 17th Nov 17, 11:47 AM
    • 2,652 Posts
    • 1,271 Thanks
    Dazed and confused
    It's possible the pension has already been taken into account i.e. your P60 pay amount is less than your actual salary because the pension (to an occupational pension) has reduced your taxable pay amount?

    Or are you referring to a personal pension/SIPP?
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 20th Nov 17, 12:24 PM
    • 3,340 Posts
    • 4,092 Thanks
    martinsurrey
    Same thing here. HMRC are an absolute disgrace. All you get is legalise, mambo jumbo, subversion and threats in letters. It's impossible to get through to them on the phone line. They have flat out refused to acknowledge my queries and concern or any culpability for confusing, convoluted lop-sided system. I for one refuse to be bullied. They're not getting a penny out of me until they ackowledge and address the issues. And for those saying your responsibility etc etc, you are nothing but brainwashed indoctrinated idiots, the wet dream of the elite who actively avoid tax because your spineless and fearful parts who'll pick up the bill for them. Grow a set
    Originally posted by Tony p
    Good luck in court, I'm sure you'll do fine.

    (and by the way, a higher income tax paying house IS the elite, average UK post tax household income is £20k, but whatever makes you feel good about yourself)
    • Swifty75
    • By Swifty75 21st Nov 17, 3:35 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Swifty75
    I have been caught out also. They wrote to me at the end of October. I owe virtually all of it back until 12/13 when this started. I was unaware that we were receiving child benefit as I am not the recipient. I am not allowed to cancel it either. I am however allowed to receive the tax bill! I spoke to various people at hmrc, the last person I spoke to admitted that it is far from ideal that it has taken over 4 years to inform me that I have done something incorrect. His reasoning was that the department was only set up a year ago, and they are still not up to a team capable of investigating this thoroughly. He did say that ideally, with the new legislation, should have come the resource to be able to chase people in year one. He said there were millions outstanding, which means that the media campaign did not work, and the treasury are out of pocket. The excuse for not telling us me in year one was that the child benefit office do not talk to hmrc, much the same excuse as I used about my wife being the recipient and I having no visibility of her finances.
    I have told them that I will pay the tax back and have even written them a cheque (which they appear to have lost), but I will appeal the penalties. To impose penalties when they admit that the system is flawed is shambolic.
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