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    • sy1980
    • By sy1980 9th Jan 18, 6:05 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 1Thanks
    sy1980
    Forced to go self empoyed
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:05 PM
    Forced to go self empoyed 9th Jan 18 at 6:05 PM
    Firstly, sorry if this is in the wrong place.

    My wife has come home from work today, having been given her P45, and told that she has to become self employed. She had no advance warning of this, having worked there for 4 years.
    The company is a butchers, and she was taken on as a cook (making pies etc) although she also helps out by serving on the counter, making sausages, sorting out the customer orders. She is limited in what she can actually do as she is disabled, so she works part time. As such, she doesn't earn enough to reach her tax threshold, but I've noticed on her P45 that her national insurance number is missing, so it also seems that they haven't been paying her national insurance contribution.

    What does she do from here? I've googled and read about it on a few different forums. It seems (to me at least) that due to the nature of work, HMRC will not recognise her as self employed, and the butchers cannot go down this route. There are only 3 permanent staff (2 butchers and my wife), plus casual saturday staff. She hasn't been informed in advance that this would happen, and hasn't agreed to it.

    Any advice would be welcomed.
Page 1
    • General Grant
    • By General Grant 9th Jan 18, 6:15 PM
    • 720 Posts
    • 832 Thanks
    General Grant
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:15 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:15 PM
    Does the final pay include pay for her notice period (4 weeks if she has completed those four years)?
    • sy1980
    • By sy1980 9th Jan 18, 6:46 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sy1980
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:46 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:46 PM
    No, she was only paid her standard wages for last week.
    • Xbigman
    • By Xbigman 9th Jan 18, 6:48 PM
    • 3,110 Posts
    • 1,348 Thanks
    Xbigman
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:48 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 6:48 PM
    Was there a proper redundancy process? After 4 years she has employment rights even if there was no contract.

    NI isn't payable below 108 per week (approx) if she earns more than that there should be NI deductions on her wage slips.



    Darren
    Xbigman's guide to a happy life.

    Eat properly
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    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 9th Jan 18, 7:26 PM
    • 17,206 Posts
    • 38,152 Thanks
    Masomnia
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:26 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:26 PM
    Stonewall unfair dismissal. If she's not happy about it she should seek legal advice.
    I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. - P.G. Wodehouse
    • sy1980
    • By sy1980 9th Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sy1980
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    No redundancy process. She found out today when she was given her p45. She asked if she was being let go but was told "no, you'll have to go self employed as there's no-one to do the wages, unless you want to do it?" The shop owner has semi retired and no longer does the paperwork. Her son (One of the butchers and the shop manager) is now doing the accounts but not the wages.

    She was given a contract, 2 years after starting, but there were several discrepancies so she returned it to be corrected and never got another one.
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 9th Jan 18, 8:39 PM
    • 3,200 Posts
    • 2,516 Thanks
    BoGoF
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:39 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:39 PM
    I'm sure HMRC would be interested in looking into this.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 10th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    • 15,829 Posts
    • 43,837 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    No redundancy process. She found out today when she was given her p45. She asked if she was being let go but was told "no, you'll have to go self employed as there's no-one to do the wages, unless you want to do it?" The shop owner has semi retired and no longer does the paperwork. Her son (One of the butchers and the shop manager) is now doing the accounts but not the wages.

    She was given a contract, 2 years after starting, but there were several discrepancies so she returned it to be corrected and never got another one.
    Originally posted by sy1980
    Did she keep a photocopy of that contract before returning it? That would help as evidence that she does have a contract.

    Yep...HMRC would be interested in this. They have objective criteria they use to assess whether someone is genuinely self-employed or no. It's not the employer that decides - it's them.
    How to make the worst decisions you'll ever make. Think "What would the ancestors do?" and (be you a person or a part of a country) you'll make a mistake every time.
    • sy1980
    • By sy1980 10th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sy1980
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    I don't think so, no. She was expecting the contract to be corrected and given back.

    I found a link to HMRC on another site that had a questionnaire to determine whether you qualify as self employed, and according to that, she wouldn't.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Jan 18, 12:20 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,939 Thanks
    Comms69
    This is unfair dismissal pure and simple. The job still exists. This isn't even a redundancy process gone wrong.


    I'd be speaking to my union (or a solicitor if you don't have one) today
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 10th Jan 18, 12:57 PM
    • 32,174 Posts
    • 19,329 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Might be easier to just go back in and explain there has been a misunderstanding they can't legally do what they have done so either need to carry on as normal.

    Depending on how helpful she wants to be she could explain the options, redundancy process with notice and redundancy if the job is really going.

    if the job is not going HMRC will not be happy with self employed and may want to review the business.


    How are the casual paid?

    Would the wife be interested in doing the payroll that may be a simple solution, might take a while to understand the full process.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 10th Jan 18, 1:33 PM
    • 827 Posts
    • 766 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    Firstly, sorry if this is in the wrong place.
    Originally posted by sy1980
    Why do people apologise for potentially posting in the wrong place?
    • sy1980
    • By sy1980 10th Jan 18, 1:54 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sy1980
    Might be easier to just go back in and explain there has been a misunderstanding they can't legally do what they have done so either need to carry on as normal.

    Depending on how helpful she wants to be she could explain the options, redundancy process with notice and redundancy if the job is really going.

    if the job is not going HMRC will not be happy with self employed and may want to review the business.


    How are the casual paid?

    Would the wife be interested in doing the payroll that may be a simple solution, might take a while to understand the full process.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I've suggested it to her, and printed some stuff for her to show her boss. She's hopefully going to speak to him today.

    All staff are paid weekly in cash.

    At the suggestion of her doing the wages she said she wouldn't know where to start. It might be worth her doing an online course to learn it, but I doubt she would get paid any extra for doing it though.
    • sy1980
    • By sy1980 10th Jan 18, 1:56 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sy1980
    Why do people apologise for potentially posting in the wrong place?
    Originally posted by NineDeuce
    Only because someone might have to spend time moving threads to the correct place. I wasn't sure which category this issue fell under, hence the pre-emptive apology.
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