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  • FIRST POST
    adamson909
    Northern Rail Fixed Penalty Notice: Help Please
    • #1
    • 11th Apr 13, 7:36 PM
    Northern Rail Fixed Penalty Notice: Help Please 11th Apr 13 at 7:36 PM
    I have received a "Fixed Penalty Notice" for allegedly intending to avoid a fare. Although I believe I have a very strong argument against why I in fact didn't commit the offence I would rather just pay the 80 + 3.40 it requests.

    However the letter states the offence was committed on the 26th Oct 2012 and the letter has been received and dated on the 9th April 2013. The letter states "No proceeding will be taken for the offence before the expiration of the 14 days from the date of this notice" (they have given me 14 days to pay the fine).

    I have read elsewhere whilst reading about these notices that there is a 6 month time limit in which to "lay evidence" to the courts.

    My first question is that given the end of my 14 days to pay, the date will be 23rd April... Leaving 3 days for the company (Northern Fail) to "lay evidence" to the courts. Is it safe to ignore this fine then?

    Second question: If I am going to pay the fine (I am a student so 83 is quite painful but I am capable of paying it) would it be a stupid idea to send them 80 for the fine and only 3 (instead of 3.40)for the fare as I was not travelling return and the fare prices were lower when the offence took place?
    I know 40p is nothing but I despise Northern Rail and would do anything to at least gain a little victory over them!

    Thanks in advance if anyone replies!
Page 3
    • Fire Fox
    • By Fire Fox 15th Apr 13, 9:43 PM
    • 25,239 Posts
    • 29,497 Thanks
    Fire Fox
    Some stations without ticket offices have 'permit to travel' machines, down south they strict about you using them, not so much up here although I notice clamping down. The onus is on the customer to purchase a ticket before travel where possible, not making an effort on the train either does not look good.
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • geordie_taxi
    The onus is on the customer to purchase a ticket before travel where possible, not making an effort on the train either does not look good.
    Originally posted by Fire Fox
    thats wot the train companies want u to think and do but ur rights as per the national rail conditions of carriage state otherwise. unless theres a legal penalty fare scheme in operation (northern have no such scheme) a passenger can board a train without a ticket and if he doesnt find a guard and as long as he buys a ticket before he leaves their destination station they havent broken any laws
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
  • geordie_taxi
    Edit: I now been sent this
    Originally posted by Quentin
    interesting i got sent the same link seems hes annoying others on that forum to

    but i do agree with wot u say about the scaremongering. cctv is only used by the fraud teams investigating a certain offender over a period of time and not to prove that a random passenger didnt make an effort to see the guard.

    but as stations have cctv it sounds scary/believable and wud make any reader on this forum cough up without question the 80 fixed penalty which as a train company employee he wants
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    • Jeff Bridges hair
    • By Jeff Bridges hair 15th Apr 13, 11:09 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 7,233 Thanks
    Jeff Bridges hair
    It doesn't state that you can pay at your destination either. Keeping it ambiguous to an extent, allows for buying from the Guard, at an interchange station or at your destination. Clever wording that you rightly say would be wrong if being specific.

    Was I wrong to specify the Guard being sought in particular? Probably, but in terms of a TOC prosecuting a passenger, as I said earlier, they could use CCTV evidence etc to prove that the passenger didn't make enough of an effort to buy their ticket. I respect what you're saying and stand corrected.
    Originally posted by Stigy

    I told you that at the very start when you claimed the onus is on the passenger to find the guard on the train.

    I shall repeat it once more should you so wish, There is no onus on the passenger to find the guard on a Northern train if there were no ticket issuing facilities at the start of their journey.

    Seeing as you still wont believe me or you keep arguing the toss, pop over to rail forum and ask them if you want to be told the same.

    I know what you are trying to put accross and in essence it is best practice to try and find the guard to purchase your ticket but they DO NOT have to and can sit in their seat for their whole journey till the guard comes round.

    Its different kettle of fish to what you normally work in your area so whilst bylaws remain the same the practices do not. In fact many people in Norther Trains land have been so used to over the last god knows how many years of paying on the train even at stations where there were facilities that its taking time for them to get used to it. In fact the term 'Pay train' is one that many passengers still use about these services
    "If you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" - Ayrton Senna
    • Jeff Bridges hair
    • By Jeff Bridges hair 15th Apr 13, 11:12 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 7,233 Thanks
    Jeff Bridges hair
    thats wot the train companies want u to think and do but ur rights as per the national rail conditions of carriage state otherwise. unless theres a legal penalty fare scheme in operation (northern have no such scheme) a passenger can board a train without a ticket and if he doesnt find a guard and as long as he buys a ticket before he leaves their destination station they havent broken any laws
    Originally posted by geordie_taxi

    See, again you are giving false information and are wrong. A passenger can ONLY do so if there are no ticketing facilities available or they are broken.

    Why do you bother writing such rubbish when I have explained it 3 times on this thread alone I do not know.

    Oh, I do,, you are trying to get one over Stigy and fllaing flat on your face. Again.

    So much for your signature claiming to be a 'Fares and Oyster specialist' when you cannot get the basic information correct.
    "If you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" - Ayrton Senna
  • geordie_taxi
    See, again you are giving false information and are wrong. A passenger can ONLY do so if there are no ticketing facilities available or they are broken.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    Totally wrong jeff and u know that. even if there is ticketing facilities the guards are normally quite happy to sell a ticket if approached as it earns them commission. only when theres a legal penalty fare scheme in place this doesnt happen

    Why do you bother writing such rubbish when I have explained it 3 times on this thread alone I do not know. .
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    if u explained it 3 times then why did firefox post above seem people didnt believe you and i can understand why

    So much for your signature claiming to be a 'Fares and Oyster specialist' when you cannot get the basic information correct.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    petty and pathetic jeff is that the best riposte u can attack me with
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Apr 13, 10:25 AM
    • 40,482 Posts
    • 24,550 Thanks
    Quentin
    Wow, you really have been digging, haven't you? 2011? I have noticed you posted a selected part of that posting. If you posted the whole thing, people would see, I'm just being my usual, helpful and knowledgeable self.... .
    Originally posted by Stigy
    If you consider your posts on the jobsworths hectors forum to be helpful how come you have to be corrected so many times in this thread?

    Or are you deliberately misleading us to gain some Brownie points off your powerful choccy policeman mates. You certainly
    seem to enjoy coming here and demonstrating how ignorant of the salient points you are.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 16th Apr 13, 10:45 AM
    • 13,800 Posts
    • 17,086 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Going back to the OP...

    It does sound like there is some opportunity for "gaming" here. I would be tempted to write back to them towards the end of the 14 days, asking a question or pointing out your innocence. This may trigger a process where they respond to you, and therefore defeat the summons deadline - which, yes, is 6 months from the offence.

    At worst, you get a second bite at it when you protest your innocence in court. Bear in mind that if this is like other summary offences, you may have two separate hearings if you plead Not Guilty.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

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    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 16th Apr 13, 10:19 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 638 Thanks
    Stigy
    interesting i got sent the same link seems hes annoying others on that forum to

    but i do agree with wot u say about the scaremongering. cctv is only used by the fraud teams investigating a certain offender over a period of time and not to prove that a random passenger didnt make an effort to see the guard.

    but as stations have cctv it sounds scary/believable and wud make any reader on this forum cough up without question the 80 fixed penalty which as a train company employee he wants
    Originally posted by geordie_taxi
    Demonstrated again that you have no idea. The train company can and do use CCTV if the think it'll aid a case in court and be beneficial, after all, it is theirs to use. This thread is going the same that one did on parking offences when certain other posters wouldn't believe that certain rail staff can question under caution. Again, ignorant barrack room posters without a clue, telling serving rail staff what they're trained in and practice is illegal.

    Jeff, I made it clear in my last post that I was not disputing that it's written down that the passenger needs to seek the guard, just emphasising that it's a grey area because of that reason alone.

    Question, what does my helpful posting on another forum have to do with my helpful posting in this one? Interested to see why anybody would message a member from here that calls their forum a jobs worth forum is anyone's guess, but hey HO!
    Last edited by Stigy; 16-04-2013 at 10:26 PM.
    • Jeff Bridges hair
    • By Jeff Bridges hair 16th Apr 13, 10:33 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 7,233 Thanks
    Jeff Bridges hair
    Totally wrong jeff and u know that. even if there is ticketing facilities the guards are normally quite happy to sell a ticket if approached as it earns them commission. only when theres a legal penalty fare scheme in place this doesnt happen
    Originally posted by geordie_taxi
    Incorrect again, and as I explained this is why they have signs up at all of their manned stations stating that you must purchase before you travel from said station. Yes a guard may sell you one, BUT if a revenue inspector gets to you before hand - and they have lots of them - then you will recieve a letter for the 80 fixed penalty or be taken to court.

    They are crystal clear about this and the advice I give is the correct advice.

    If you carry on misleading people in these threads then I will start reporting you for doing such a thing because I am tired of it now.
    "If you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" - Ayrton Senna
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Apr 13, 11:00 PM
    • 40,482 Posts
    • 24,550 Thanks
    Quentin
    Again, ignorant barrack room posters without a clue, telling serving rail staff what they're trained in and practice is illegal.......
    Originally posted by Stigy
    You certainly seem to need more training or do you just make it up and sound powerfulwhile dealing with the public??

    See #37 where 5 of your wholly incorrect assertions from just this thread are listed before you refer to anyone else as "ignorant"!
  • geordie_taxi
    Incorrect again, and as I explained this is why they have signs up at all of their manned stations stating that you must purchase before you travel from said station. Yes a guard may sell you one, BUT if a revenue inspector gets to you before hand - and they have lots of them - then you will recieve a letter for the 80 fixed penalty or be taken to court.

    They are crystal clear about this and the advice I give is the correct advice.

    If you carry on misleading people in these threads then I will start reporting you for doing such a thing because I am tired of it now.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    More rubbish jeff. posters at manned stations mean nothing if ur rights via the national rail conditions of carriage are infringed and again u know this but u prefer to argue with me when deep down u know im right

    As to ur advice its not crystal clear as u had to repost it 3 times and its still been questioned by many posters on here. and ur claims to it been correct well id say its best to ignore

    as to u reporting me I think u have been doing that already shame that others aint blinkered and opinionated like u or feel threaten by a different point (correct) of view
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Apr 13, 11:18 PM
    • 40,482 Posts
    • 24,550 Thanks
    Quentin

    If you carry on misleading people in these threads then I will start reporting you for doing such a thing because I am tired of it now.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    This thread has gone on and on because of so called experts "misleading" us (in the case of the chocolate policeman, worse than "misleading", in telling us incorrect information in the 5 posts listed above), and others taking the time to point out the "mistakes".

    However we are all told to be cautious over any posts written here, and you threatening to "report" posters you are tired with is just pompous, (and laughable)!

    The solution for you if you are tired of reading certain posters is to "ignore" them (and go to bed).
    • Jeff Bridges hair
    • By Jeff Bridges hair 17th Apr 13, 12:09 AM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 7,233 Thanks
    Jeff Bridges hair
    More rubbish jeff. posters at manned stations mean nothing if ur rights via the national rail conditions of carriage are infringed and again u know this but u prefer to argue with me when deep down u know im right

    As to ur advice its not crystal clear as u had to repost it 3 times and its still been questioned by many posters on here. and ur claims to it been correct well id say its best to ignore

    as to u reporting me I think u have been doing that already shame that others aint blinkered and opinionated like u or feel threaten by a different point (correct) of view
    Originally posted by geordie_taxi

    Ok then clever clogs, can you show me in the National rail conditions of carriage where it states what you claim, that is you do not have to purchase a ticket before boarding where they are available?

    Ill even show you the link http://www.southernrailway.com/download/11356.8/national-rail-conditions-of-carriage-5-oct-2011/ to assist you in finding out where it states what you claim - that you do not have to purchase a ticket before boarding if the facilities are available.



    This thread has gone on and on because of so called experts "misleading" us (in the case of the chocolate policeman, worse than "misleading", in telling us incorrect information in the 5 posts listed above), and others taking the time to point out the "mistakes".

    However we are all told to be cautious over any posts written here, and you threatening to "report" posters you are tired with is just pompous, (and laughable)!

    The solution for you if you are tired of reading certain posters is to "ignore" them (and go to bed).
    Originally posted by Quentin
    I would do Quentin, but also this site is for people getting the correct advice not the wrong advice which could lead them into even more trouble. GE's signature is false, his information provided is often false and goes against the NCoC quite often and also against bylaws.
    "If you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" - Ayrton Senna
  • geordie_taxi
    To the OP and other MSE's, sorry about the chaos and anarchy this thread has descended into but I feel it is my right to defend myself when unjustifiably attacked

    can you show me in the National rail conditions of carriage where it states what you claim, that is you do not have to purchase a ticket before boarding where they are available?Ill even show you the link
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    jeff thank you for posting the link but I got mine from national rail website. but saved me the hassle;

    2. Requirement to hold a ticket
    Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
    train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.
    If you travel in a train:
    (a) without a ticket; or
    (b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
    30, 35 and 39 apply;
    you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
    Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey.
    my bold. so if theres no legal penalty fare scheme u r not committing any offence other than having to pay full price as buying onboard means u lose the right to any discounted tickets if theres ticketing facilities available at ur start station.

    so yet again your accusations of me posting incorrect info has been disproved

    the rest of your post is dribble or selective, like ignoring the point I made about u having to repost 3 time as people didn't believe u. all ur posts are designed to do is attack me and not help the OP

    GE's signature is false, his information provided is often false and goes against the NCoC quite often and also against bylaws.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    that's libellous jeff there is nothing false about my signature its just that u have taken offence against it and now in a unhealthy obsessive troll like manner follow me around the forum and with no regard/respect to the OP's post
    Last edited by geordie_taxi; 17-04-2013 at 2:17 PM.
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    • Jeff Bridges hair
    • By Jeff Bridges hair 18th Apr 13, 11:31 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 7,233 Thanks
    Jeff Bridges hair
    "If you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" - Ayrton Senna
  • geordie_taxi
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    • Jeff Bridges hair
    • By Jeff Bridges hair 20th Apr 13, 5:25 AM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 7,233 Thanks
    Jeff Bridges hair
    that's libellous jeff there is nothing false about my signature its just that u have taken offence against it and now in a unhealthy obsessive troll like manner follow me around the forum and with no regard/respect to the OP's post
    Originally posted by geordie_taxi
    So sue me then.

    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    If you were a fares advisor then you would know about the need for a passenger too purchase a ticekt before they travel where facilities are provided.

    If you were an Oyster specialist then you would know who to send any complaints to for journeys within London. You dont.

    Who are uk rail and what fares workshop did you attend for this ficticious body to accredit you and with what accreditation? There is no company nor any body I can find who call themselves Uk Rail anywhere.


    So I am calling your signature false and that you have it there to lie to people who you claim you are trying to help to give yourself some sort of authority yet you never seem to give fare information, you never seem to give Oyster information either and a lot, if not most of the information you do give is incorrect.

    So sue me. Or show us all your accreditation from this ficticious 'Uk Rail' people or stop lying to people who come here for help and advice.
    "If you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" - Ayrton Senna
  • geordie_taxi
    So sue me then.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    childish jeff its only an internet forum and ive got better things 2 do with my time like help people with fare problems

    If you were a fares advisor then you would know about the need for a passenger too purchase a ticekt before they travel where facilities are

    If you were an Oyster specialist then you would know who to send any complaints to for journeys within London.
    Originally posted by Jeff Bridges hair
    already answered those questions correctly I can provide links to were the answers r or were u agreed with me if u like

    as to ur drivel about my signature it seems to me one last roll of the dice to discredit me. It just makes u sound so bitter and twisted. very sad man if u have problem with my signature let mse sort it instead of ruining this thread
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - Newdeal/ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    • giraffe69
    • By giraffe69 20th Apr 13, 9:52 AM
    • 2,810 Posts
    • 2,448 Thanks
    giraffe69
    Fares Advisor & Oyster Specialist - ukRail Fares Workshop Accredited
    I guess spelling and punctuation were not part of the test to gain this qualification.
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