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Is it worth appealing this ticket

2

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  • francolin
    francolin Posts: 26 Forumite
    edited 3 July 2018 at 11:39AM
    In a bit of a dilemma. I have tired contacting the Supermarket to see if they could get this cancelled. They have eventually replied, took about 6 days. What they have said is that if I show them a copy of the receipt, and the PCN (as a scan online), they may be able to get the land department to help. However, they have said that they contacted the store and confirmed it's customer parking only, and if anyone is seen leaving the site they will get fined. The PCN says "observed leaving the site". Should I just scan what they want, send it to them and hope for the best? Or should I explain to them, since this is the Supermarket themselves, that the person did leave to use a cash machine so that they could then spend money at your store? Or is it likely that I may give information away to Parking company by doing so?
    Personally, I would have no problem dealing with a Parking company. The real problem for me, is that the registered keeper would really not be able to make it to court for various reasons if it came down to it, and from what I've read it seems that this particular company is quite happy to do just that. I'm really tempted to just pay it at this point. I know it's bang out of order, but I can't risk a potential court appearance. Any thoughts?
  • System
    System Posts: 178,093 Community Admin
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    edited 3 July 2018 at 11:43AM
    Does the sign actually say you should not leave the site? If it doesn't then it is a defence

    IMHO you should appeal to the supermarket, explain why you left the site and draw attention to the difference between the legitimate interest to prevent non-shoppers parking in comparison to clients like you with a reason to leave (and come back/shop).

    A lot of these technical breaches can be seen off when measured against legitimate interests.

    Edit: If you want to give VCS a kicking at the same time you might add that 'there is a great deal of public anxiety about alleged unfairness and injustice inflicted by parking operators that are part of the International Parking Community. Such is the anxiety that Parliament are debating the replacement of the current IPC code that allows VCS to indulge in harassing the supermarket's clients.'
  • francolin
    francolin Posts: 26 Forumite
    As it happens, I don't have my phone on me, but from memory the sign said something like Customers may park their vehicle here whilst on site. I don't know how robust that is?
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,336 Forumite
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    francolin wrote: »
    As it happens, I don't have my phone on me, but from memory the sign said something like Customers may park their vehicle here whilst on site. I don't know how robust that is?

    'something like' is not robust at all! Check it out on your phone, then come back.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,407 Forumite
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    If you want to give VCS a kicking at the same time you might add that

    'there is a great deal of public anxiety about alleged unfairness and injustice inflicted by parking operators that are part of the International Parking Community. Such is the anxiety that Parliament are debating the replacement of the current IPC code that allows VCS to indulge in harassing the supermarket's clients.'
    I like that, IamEmanresu. Very measured but clearly relevant to a retailer complaint. :)
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • francolin
    francolin Posts: 26 Forumite
    edited 3 July 2018 at 4:53PM
    Just reading through the email they sent me again, and some parts of it are peeing me off. This is what I am thinking of writing back. I don't know how good it is. I would be very grateful if someone could read through it and offer advise or corrections. Also, I don't know whether I should send it to the person who emailed it to me, or the social media team, since they are seemingly more willing to engage.


    Thank you for your reply concerning my issue with a false PCN that was issued at one of your stores. Since the email you used to reply to me is a no reply address, I assume no one monitors it so I am writing to you again. For your convenience, I have copied and pasted your email to me, and my original email to you below so that you can reference it.

    I am going to be straightforward with you. You say that you contacted the store (I assume this is PLACE, XYZ) and to quote:

    "The store have confirmed that the car park is for the supermarket shoppers only an "if a customer is seen going off site then a parking fine will be issued." [sic]

    How exactly was confirmation of this given? What confirms it? Who confirmed it? How is a customer supposed to know this? The only way you could communicate this information, is via signage. There is absolutely no signage on that site that says, or otherwise confirms "if a customer is seen going off site then a parking fine will be issued." There is no mention of any "fines" whatsoever for that matter.
    I assume you spoke to the store manager. The same store manager who has already demonstrated his incompetence, and utter contempt of me I]this bit is true, but very specific to me so I won't mention it here[/I. Since you are from Customer Care, I would like to know that my initial complaint/request to you was twofold. One, was to cancel this ridiculous, baseless PCN, and my second complaint was with regards to your store manager that treated me extraordinarily terribly. What do you have to say with regards to that issue?

    As to the abject vagueness of "The store have confirmed that the car park is for supermarket shoppers only an if a customer is seen going off site then a parking fine will be issued." [sic],
    You cannot expect any customer using the store to know this without explicit signage. There is none. Please refrain from saying things that are unsubstantiated. Someone confirming it is of absolutely no use without clearly written signage. Without clearly written signage, there is nothing to confirm. I stress again, there is absolutely no signage confirming this.

    Are you implying that you are facilitating the operations of a Private Parking Company to target your customers for unverifiable, alleged technical infractions without any way of those customers knowing? Are you trapping your customers? Do you realise how serious the implications of this would be? For such a simple issue, this is getting alarmingly scandalous.
    The actions of the store in question have been nothing short of outrageous.

    I would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is a great deal of public anxiety about alleged unfairness and injustice inflicted by parking operators that are part of the International Parking Community (which VCS, the charge notice issuer is a part of). Such is the anxiety that Parliament are debating the replacement of the current IPC code that allows VCS to indulge in harassing the supermarket's clients.

    On the day the alleged infraction took place [date time], I parked at your store, as a customer, as I have done countless times before with the intention of doing some shopping. Upon realising I had no cash, I crossed the road to use the cash machine so that I would have money to spend at your store. This is not unusual or unreasonable behaviour for a customer. Your interests lie with trading with the customer. Cash is required for this to happen. I have a receipt to demonstrate that after withdrawing cash from the machine, I then came back and spent it at your store. This is definitely not the same as abusing the customer car park (which is presumably why you allow a third party to issue PCNs). So what interest would you have in penalising a patron of your store, a patron that has used your stores for many years quite happily? There is none.
    You must intervene and cancel this PCN that has been issued as a desperate attempt by the Parking Company to capitalise unfairly on the needs of your customers. It is in nobody's interest to pursue this charge excepting the Parking Company.
    I have uploaded a receipt and copy of the PCN as requested.
    Since this clearly beyond the scope of the Customer Care team and store management give me the email and telephone number of the lands team so that I can deal with them directly. I]Don't know if I should add this[/I
    Thank you.

    Should I add a link in there somewhere to where it shows that leaving site claims are basically just a scam? Any good refrences that someone could kindly point out to me? Thanks folks.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,407 Forumite
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    I wouldn't include this, but the rest is a good complaint:
    Since this clearly beyond the scope of the Customer Care team and store management give me the email and telephone number of the lands team so that I can deal with them directly. [Don't know if I should add this]
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • francolin
    francolin Posts: 26 Forumite
    After sending that, I just got a letter today from the parking mob, and it says that the charge notice was issued correctly (I think they may have told them about the cash machine thing) but after speaking with their client, and as a gesture of goodwill, they're willing to settle for £10. Any opinions? I completely disagree on principle of course, but I can make an awful lot of stress and hassle disappear for a tenner.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,407 Forumite
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    Why not pay VCS the stupid tenner, then (afterwards) hit them with a SAR?!

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784

    and contact the DVLA as per the info in that link.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,336 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    as a gesture of goodwill, they're willing to settle for £10. Any opinions?
    Here's mine:

    While I object to the stunts and tricks of the PPC network, I would seriously consider whether the cost of a couple of pints of lager is worth fighting over in order to kill this dead. Otherwise it's up to 6 years of uncertainty as to whether the PPC will proceed to court (and VCS are increasingly litigious) - which you, not us, have to face the prospect of, not knowing what will drop through your letterbox between now and 2024.

    Sometimes pragmatism outweighs optimism.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
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