Any help Greatly Appreciated- DO NOT WANT TO PAY THIS FINE

Tritan28 · 19 June 2017 at 8:33PM

Hi all,

I have trawled through the endless amounts of info you guys have so kindly posted on here so far. Thank you for that.

However, I am still unsure what is best to do in my case.

I have a company car, so I am not the keeper- I read that means I need to appeal ASAP to prevent them from going to DVLA to get my details. (UKPC is the PPC in question by the way).

I have read the examples and I'm not sure which one I should use.
Here's what happened:
The car park is a graveled area with no bays, but plenty of signage. (all be it small, but I have no photographs of signage as the writing on the actual machine was the issue here)
There is a large sign on entry stating 'all day £4' and on the machine it shows prices of £4 all day (12hrs) and £6 for 24 hours.

Now i paid £6.70. I entered after 9:30am on 16/06/17 and was back at my car before 9:10am on the 17/06/17. So I was technically was entitled to in excess of 24hrs according to the signs on the machine, yet when I came back to my car, there was a fine for £60 from UKPC.

Yes, the expiry time on the ticket says 05:49am 17/06/17- but I ignored this due to what the signage on the machine says. Did not realise it did not show what time the ticket was printed.
I should also say that the machine did not display the correct time- it was off by a few mins and seemed to be passing time faster than real life.

There is cctv pointing on the screen, but I'm sure they will say this does not work as the footage would only prove I paid for the time I was there IN FULL.
I also got change from the guys at the car park next door, as the machine still does not accept the new £1 coins, and my friend in the car with me also witnessed me parking my car at this time.

I also have a video showing me inserting £6.00 into the machine and it giving no where near 24hrs parking. Surely this will help?

I am utterly stressed out by this completely unnecessary and ridiculous fine. So much so, the next day when actually moving my friends stuff I refused to leave my car in case I was issued with another fine!! If i felt I had overstayed the time I paid for I would probably pay the fine, but now I don't want to pay another PCN ever again after reading how money grabbing and awful these PPCs are

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Redx · 19 June 2017 at 9:06PM

just follow the advice to hirers/lessees by edna basher in the NEWBIES sticky thread

do not reveal who was driving , edit your posts so the driver is not revealed

these are not "fines", they are parking charge notices , pcn`s , INVOICES

THESE COMPANIES CANNOT USE CCTV FOR THESE PURPOSES

they tend to use either parking attendants or ANPR cameras , in your case they used a parking attendant and that person placed a PCN on the vehicle , not a "fine" and took photos too

as for your arguments about proof etc, this info and evidence may well be useful in a court where a judge decides

and do not call it a "fine" at popla or in court , you made that word up , it wont be on any of the paperwork nor is it on any of their signs either

its easier to not use 4 letter F words like that one , lol

Tritan28 · 19 June 2017 at 9:24PM

Thanks very much.

I will try not to use those words again!

So do you think I should use the one below (copied from newbie feed) and maybe add that the machine is faulty and doesn't give you the amount of time for the money it says it will?

'Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.'

Yours faithfully,

Redx · 19 June 2017 at 9:32PM

you have copied the blue text appeal in the above reply

yet I told you to find and use the EDNA BASHER appeal

bear in mind that a keeper would not necessarily know about the machine being faulty, only a driver or an occupant of the vehicle would know that aspect

sometimes less is more

in this case you are trying to get them to back down , or issue a popla code, but you are more intent on explaining "what happened on the day"

the latter is usually fatal to any appeal or defence where the keeper is being chased , so for now I would say that you should follow the advice given by edna basher for hire car appeals

but you seem to have only read the part that applies to the more usual "keepers" , where hire cars or rentals are not involved , so good for reading it yet the bit I told you to read has been completely ignored

Tritan28 · 19 June 2017 at 10:03PM

I have followed both links from the newbie page for company cars, one is in response to a letter sent to the keeper using Keepers Liability and POFA 2012, how would this apply to my case when I/the keeper have not had a letter? (Only got the ticket 2 days ago, but from what I read I am supposed to act before they get driver info from registered keeper?)
And the other is from Edna as you suggested, but it is a response to a non compliance notice to the hire company, which again I don't have.
I haven't done the inital process of fighting the fine with the company and it hasn't been long enough for them to contact the lease company so I'm confused as to what I need to do now?

Really sorry I am trying to get to grips with this the best I can.

Edna_Basher · 20 June 2017 at 1:49PM

Hi Tritan28

PPCs monitor this Forum and the first thing you need to do is edit your opening post to remove any clues as to the identity of the driver........and there are plenty of clues for you to remove.

I see from your opening post that UKPC issued a windscreen PCN at the time of the alleged incident. You’re quite right to submit a challenge early (i.e. before UKPC access the DVLA database) in order to keep your company and lease company (if the vehicle is on hire) out of the loop.

The Blue Template is okay to use and has the benefit of not giving UKPC any idea that the car is a company vehicle.

Tritan28 wrote: »

I have a company car, so I am not the keeper.

Although you may not be the "registered keeper", you are perfectly entitled to describe yourself as the “keeper”. POFA has a very woolly definition of “keeper” as meaning the person by whom the vehicle is kept at the time the vehicle was parked, which in the case of a registered vehicle is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be the registered keeper.

Any help Greatly Appreciated- DO NOT WANT TO PAY THIS FINE

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