How can I make a neighbour dispute official?

vet8 · 4 July 2018 at 4:48PM

seashore22 wrote: »

That's fine as far as it goes, but the op's purpose is to scupper a sale, so may have to live with this neighbour for longer than he would like. It's a reasonable possibility that the new neighbours will be nicer and sign whatever needs signing. I wouldn't be throwing an official dispute into the mix right now.

The BT guy did suggest waiting until he has sold the place and then approaching the new owner. I did not want to do that. Apart form the fact I do not fancy saying, "Welcome to the village, sign this form" it is very dependent on the new guy. If he says no then we are stuffed. As the current owner plans to sell it is no skin off his nose at all if the verge is dug up one day.
I should also say that our power cable goes under that same verge so the BT cable would just lie above it.

Barejester · 4 July 2018 at 4:48PM

vet8 wrote: »

I appreciate that that can be the case, but I am pretty sure here that his boundary ends at the verge and several people around here have been taken to court by the local council for trying to extend their garden onto the verge.

Seems like neither you or BT have checked the LR to see if your neighbour does in fact own the land, this was some pretty early advice given to you - do you not feel it's relevant? For the sake of £3 it would give you confirmation one way or the other and possibly clear up the situation pretty quickly.

Uxb · 4 July 2018 at 4:50PM

If the road is an unadopted one then its legal status is probably either a BOAT or a true private way with no public rights of way along it in any category.
Such ways are not owned by the council unlike full public highways where the council or highways agency on behalf of HMG owns the land of the road tarmac and usually a verge on either side or around 1m.

In the case of the OP, the situation is that where a way passes along between two land parcels or properties and the ownership of the way is not by documentary evidence in either of the properties ownership and nor is it owned in its entirety by a third party then each is assumed that each owns the land of the way for the length of their property/land parcel frontage onto the way and up to the centre of the way from either side of it.

BT are correct.
I would try and get BT to use their statutory code powers that all the main utility companies have which enables them after due notice is given to enter unto private land without further notice or agreement for the purpose of providing an essential public service and that there is no feasible and reasonable alternative route and therefore that the objection can be overruled in the public interest.

I live on such a private way. I also know of other private ways where the way is owned entirely for its width plus the verge by the house at the end of the way.
Usually the solution of the awkward squad is to go down the other side of the road side as usually such a neighbour will only own land on one side of the way and so his awkwardness can only extend up to the centre line of the roadway.
I do actually know of a case where a person owns land on either side opposite them on such a way so forming a total block.

Edit:
There are dangers if the residents do not claim at every possibility your ownership of such way and say that you only own up to your front fence/verge. This leaves it open as a possibility for otthers with bad intents to come along and register their adverse ownership of the unclaimed land of the roadway as their property and suddenly depriving you of a right of access to your property.

vet8 · 4 July 2018 at 5:01PM

Barejester wrote: »

Seems like neither you or BT have checked the LR to see if your neighbour does in fact own the land, this was some pretty early advice given to you - do you not feel it's relevant? For the sake of £3 it would give you confirmation one way or the other and possibly clear up the situation pretty quickly.

We have contacted the Land registry to try to find the owner of the land, we will get the neighbour's deed as well, but either way it does not really help us. If he does not own the land as I suspect, BT will still refuse to dig up the verge without someone else signing the form. So really it is better if they think he is able to sign the form, at least it then gives them someone to contact.

vet8 · 4 July 2018 at 5:12PM

Uxb wrote: »

If the road is an unadopted one then its legal status is probably either a BOAT or a true private way with no public rights of way along it in any category.
Such ways are not owned by the council unlike full public highways where the council or highways agency on behalf of HMG owns the land of the road tarmac and usually a verge on either side or around 1m.

In the case of the OP, the situation is that where a way passes along between two land parcels or properties and the ownership of the way is not by documentary evidence in either of the properties ownership and nor is it owned in its entirety by a third party then each is assumed that each owns the land of the way for the length of their property/land parcel frontage onto the way and up to the centre of the way from either side of it.

BT are correct.
I would try and get BT to use their statutory code powers that all the main utility companies have which enables them after due notice is given to enter unto private land without further notice or agreement for the purpose of providing an essential public service and that there is no feasible and reasonable alternative route and therefore that the objection can be overruled in the public interest.

I live on such a private way. I also know of other private ways where the way is owned entirely for its width plus the verge by the house at the end of the way.
Usually the solution of the awkward squad is to go down the other side of the road side as usually such a neighbour will only own land on one side of the way and so his awkwardness can only extend up to the centre line of the roadway.
I do actually know of a case where a person owns land on either side opposite them on such a way so forming a total block.

Edit:
There are dangers if the residents do not claim at every possibility your ownership of such way and say that you only own up to your front fence/verge. This leaves it open as a possibility for otthers with bad intents to come along and register their adverse ownership of the unclaimed land of the roadway as their property and suddenly depriving you of a right of access to your property.

Thank you for this very informative post. Our road is actually a designated bridleway.
I agree that BT have a statutory right to lay their cable. I down loaded a paper from the House of Commons library that said public utilities have a right to dig up unadopted roads and the "road managers" cannot stop them, they can ask for a certain date for the work, but not stop it.
The strange thing is our house was connected to the electricity from the same pole as the BT line along the same grass verge and no-one asked anyone for permission and the water board dug across the road from the main and again asked no one. BT seems unable to act even though as I read on the Ofcom site they have a Universal Obligation to connect every house that wants it to a landline "irrespective of location".

pinklady21 · 4 July 2018 at 5:23PM

Have you written to your neighbour to explain the situation; why you need a phoneline, that disruption will be minimal, and that the phone line will take the same route as the existing underground powerline?
If so, how did he respond? What exactly is the nature of his objection?
(Does he have a phoneline? Where does it go?)

Do you have powerlines both above and below the property?
Is there another, albeit slightly longer, route for the telephone wire to take with less awkward landowners?
If will clearly cost more to lay a longer cable, but you could issue an ultimatum to Open Reach - either lay it on the shortest route using whatever of their powers is available to install an essential service, or suck up the higher cost of sending it round the other way instead.

Smodlet · 4 July 2018 at 5:37PM

pinklady21 wrote: »

Have you written to your neighbour to explain the situation; why you need a phoneline, that disruption will be minimal, and that the phone line will take the same route as the existing underground powerline?
If so, how did he respond? What exactly is the nature of his objection?
(Does he have a phoneline? Where does it go?)

Do you have powerlines both above and below the property?
Is there another, albeit slightly longer, route for the telephone wire to take with less awkward landowners?
If will clearly cost more to lay a longer cable, but you could issue an ultimatum to Open Reach - either lay it on the shortest route using whatever of their powers is available to install an essential service, or suck up the higher cost of sending it round the other way instead.

Pinklady21, you make some very valid points but unfortunately, I don't think Openreach (BT are a separate entity who no longer deal with infrastructure) ever "suck up" excess costs. They always find a way to make the customer pay be they a private individual or a re-seller.

Vet8, you seem to have exhausted all the sensible solutions though I cannot believe that somebody, somewhere does not know to whom this verge belongs. If your road is a bridle path, could it be worth networking among the local equestrians to see if they have any ideas? Grasping as straws, I know but at least maintaining the metaphor.

Could you conceivably develop a problem with your water supply which would necessitate the excavation of the mains supply to your property? Once it had been exhumed, could not duct-laying elves be persuaded to visit in the still watches of the night thereby solving the way leave problem?

I am not taking the mickey, it is a real problem and one which, I think, might benefit from a creative solution.

vet8 · 4 July 2018 at 5:45PM

pinklady21 wrote: »

Have you written to your neighbour to explain the situation; why you need a phoneline, that disruption will be minimal, and that the phone line will take the same route as the existing underground powerline?
If so, how did he respond? What exactly is the nature of his objection?
(Does he have a phoneline? Where does it go?)

Do you have powerlines both above and below the property?
Is there another, albeit slightly longer, route for the telephone wire to take with less awkward landowners?
If will clearly cost more to lay a longer cable, but you could issue an ultimatum to Open Reach - either lay it on the shortest route using whatever of their powers is available to install an essential service, or suck up the higher cost of sending it round the other way instead.

I spoke to the Open Reach guy when he called for the second time about 2 weeks ago . The pole they need to come from stands on the grass verge and he said that even if they take the cable along the road and avoid the verge they will still have to cross about one foot of the verge and they will still need the neighbour's permission.I find it laughable. I suggested they come from another pole the other way, but he said it had to be this one.

I have no idea what the neighbour's objection is to this. The odd thing he has always seemed friendly enough over the years, but he originally replied to BT saying that " he was unable to sign the form" now he will, but not at the moment.

moneyistooshorttomention · 4 July 2018 at 5:48PM

vet8 wrote: »

Thank you for this very informative post. Our road is actually a designated bridleway.
I agree that BT have a statutory right to lay their cable. I down loaded a paper from the House of Commons library that said public utilities have a right to dig up unadopted roads and the "road managers" cannot stop them, they can ask for a certain date for the work, but not stop it.
The strange thing is our house was connected to the electricity from the same pole as the BT line along the same grass verge and no-one asked anyone for permission and the water board dug across the road from the main and again asked no one. BT seems unable to act even though as I read on the Ofcom site they have a Universal Obligation to connect every house that wants it to a landline "irrespective of location".

Might be the best solution to go over the head of Openreach/BT. There must be some ombudsman/woman over the head of them and it might be the way to deal with this is to go to that person and quote this legal right and ask them to "kick the backside" of lower down know-nothing jobsworth (suitably phrased).

EDIT; With this awkward character first saying they won't sign and then "Yep...but not yet" - I'm wondering whether they are playing a game to try and get you to pay them a bribe to shut up being awkward and sign. Two options if that's the case I guess; 1. tell them you suspect this and they won't be getting one - so they might as well stop playing silly b&ggers or 2. pay them a bribe in the form of a cheque from one hand, the next second wave form at them to sign. Then walk off and ring your bank and stop the cheque.

PasturesNew · 4 July 2018 at 5:52PM

Could it come up your back passage missus? An entirely different route. Not the preferred route, or shortest, or best ... but you presumably have rear boundaries where the land the other side of those belongs to known individuals/farms.

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How can I make a neighbour dispute official?

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