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  • FIRST POST
    1connect
    WARNING! Online bidding rip off at BCA British Car Auctions
    • #1
    • 17th May 11, 8:18 AM
    WARNING! Online bidding rip off at BCA British Car Auctions 17th May 11 at 8:18 AM
    ????? are they really ripping us off ?????

    I was at BCA yesterday, and I was SHOCKED and OUTRAGED at what I believe was happening...

    Firstly some background about traditional FAKE bidding, some unscrupulous auction houses and auctioneers will take a real bid from punter A at the front of the room and to artificially inflate the price they will then "pretend" to take a FAKE bid from punter B who doesn't exist to then force another bid from punter A, the problem with this is that then, if the auctioneer reads the body language wrong and goes too far of punter A he can be left on the higher bod which id fake, they then frequently come back to punter A and say "I can take 50 if it helps" (half the bid increment) to reset the end bid back on the real punter. effectiveley this is fraud.

    OK so now you understand this scam, what believe I saw at BCA Castle Bromwich in May 2011 was FAR WORSE!
    The auctioneer was taking bids from the Hall and the Net except this is what I saw happen, the hall bids finished, he then carried on rattling off fake bids against the internet bidder forcing up the price by some £800 or so, and when the web bidders bids where exhausted he was left with a fake hall bid, I then saw the bid click BACK to the WEB BIDDER , yes they clicked the software to get the max bid to re focus on the REAL bidder ... UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!

    I should say I have been around cars and auctions all my life, with a family owned garage for half a century.

    This guy was not even looking up between fake bids he was BLATANTLY playing the guy on the web and backing it up with FALSE verbal web commentary, as if there was a REAL BIDDER IN THE HALL.

    I have to say I was disgusted.

    SO for this reason I would advise ANYBODY considering buying a car FROM AUCTION on the web NOT TO BOTHER , instead go to the auction hall and watch the auctioneers eyes and follow then to the person in the hall looking for REAL signs of a REAL BIDDER.

    Make this obvious top the auctioneer by tracking the bids and signals he is following, he might NOT bid you against a FAKE "fresh air" buyer.

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED - FROM SOMEONE WITH INSIDE EXPERT TRADE KNOWLEDGE - DONT DO IT ONLINE - GO TO THE AUCTION - FOLLOW THE BID SIGNALS - NEVER ACCEPT A FINAL BID IF IT HAS BEEN HALVED - DO NOT SHOW ANY BODY LANGUAGE THAT YOU ARE DITHERING ABOUT A MAX BID (USE YOUR POKER FACE) - SET A PRICE AND STICK TO IT

    RIP OFF BRITAIN STRIKES AGAIN :- I HOPE ANY AUCTION HOUSE DOING THIS IS INVESTIGATED FOR FRAUD
    Last edited by 1connect; 18-05-2011 at 8:29 AM.
Page 1
    • harveybobbles
    • By harveybobbles 17th May 11, 8:45 AM
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    harveybobbles
    • #2
    • 17th May 11, 8:45 AM
    • #2
    • 17th May 11, 8:45 AM
    and your point is...?!
    • harveybobbles
    • By harveybobbles 17th May 11, 8:46 AM
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    harveybobbles
    • #3
    • 17th May 11, 8:46 AM
    • #3
    • 17th May 11, 8:46 AM
    You will find that lots of car auctions will have reserves set on them, so the auctioneer will start just under the reserve and bid the wall off against the ceiling until he/she recieves a bid in the hall or online from a real person.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 17th May 11, 8:48 AM
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    soolin
    • #4
    • 17th May 11, 8:48 AM
    • #4
    • 17th May 11, 8:48 AM
    You are brave making such claims openly on an internet forum, can you for instance prove the internet bidding claims? I use auction houses (but not for cars) and the software for online bidding is NOT managed by the auction house but by the people who manage the online part so it would be impossible to reset the bid sitting at the podium.

    As for taking half increments, that is very common and if you watch the TV programmes about buying houses you will see it is usual for an auctioener to offer a smaller increment to an underbidder, even at my end of the market I see smaller increments offerd sometimes if an underbidder wavers.

    I have no involvement or even knowledge of the auctioener you mention, but since at least two of your points struck me as odd I htought it worth responding. I would be very cautious though in what you post online as some companies take their reputation very seriously.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
    New to Forum? Guide
    • harveybobbles
    • By harveybobbles 17th May 11, 8:50 AM
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    harveybobbles
    • #5
    • 17th May 11, 8:50 AM
    • #5
    • 17th May 11, 8:50 AM
    the hall bids finished, he then carried on rattling off fake bids against the internet bidder forcing up the price by some £800 or so, and when the web bidders bids where exhausted he was left with a fake hall bid, I then saw the bid click BACK to the WEB BIDDER , yes they clicked the software to get the max bid to re focus on the REAL bidder
    Originally posted by 1connect
    How do you know the hall bids had finished? Unless you were watching the hands, eyes and eye browns of everyone in there.

    When i'm bidding I don't move or flap my arms about - I just look once at the auctioneer once to get his attention and then just stare at him. He comes back to me everytime and takes a bid from me, until I put my head down or wonder off.


    Also if you've been in the motor trade for as long as you say, then you will know how an auction works...!

    Heres a demo of BCA for anyone interested..

    http://www.british-car-auctions.co.uk/Default.aspx?page=11140

    Even small auctions have the same issue...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NSnShgwG3U
    Last edited by harveybobbles; 17-05-2011 at 8:53 AM.
    • harveybobbles
    • By harveybobbles 17th May 11, 9:07 AM
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    harveybobbles
    • #6
    • 17th May 11, 9:07 AM
    • #6
    • 17th May 11, 9:07 AM
    the hall bids finished, he then carried on rattling off fake bids against the internet bidder forcing up the price by some £800 or so, and when the web bidders bids where exhausted he was left with a fake hall bid, I then saw the bid click BACK to the WEB BIDDER , yes they clicked the software to get the max bid to re focus on the REAL
    Originally posted by 1connect
    There was no hall bidder, but there was an online bidder (ie a dealer)

    The auctioneer was bidding one off against the other, but the online bidder gave up, so they just reset the system as it didn't get close to the reserve price.

    It happens lots. Not just at BCA.
    • RFW
    • By RFW 17th May 11, 11:25 AM
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    RFW
    • #7
    • 17th May 11, 11:25 AM
    • #7
    • 17th May 11, 11:25 AM
    Without naming any companies, I went for a job as an auctioneer quite a few years ago at a car auction house, whilst there I had to demonstrate taking bids to an empty room. I also watched an auction in progress where the auctioneer 'sold' every item they put through.

    I found out later that the actual sell through rate of all the cars in the sale was 12%, so it is fairly common practice.

    A lot of the larger companies have salerooms around the country and move cars between them until they sell, or return them to the vendor.
    .
  • Edvard
    • #8
    • 17th May 11, 11:41 AM
    • #8
    • 17th May 11, 11:41 AM
    You are brave making such claims openly on an internet forum


    Without anything to back this up this is slander at best and all out libel is a possibility. This poster obvious likes to be sued, BCA are a huge company, I hope for his sake they don't see this!
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 18-05-2011 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Personal abuse
  • Hammyman
    • #9
    • 17th May 11, 11:48 AM
    • #9
    • 17th May 11, 11:48 AM
    You are brave making such claims openly on an internet forum, can you for instance prove the internet bidding claims? I use auction houses (but not for cars) and the software for online bidding is NOT managed by the auction house but by the people who manage the online part so it would be impossible to reset the bid sitting at the podium.
    Originally posted by soolin
    Sorry soolin but I have installed auction software for a local auction house. They CAN manage it at the stand. You're assuming that the BCA is using the same software you've seen, assuming you've actually had first hand experience....
    • soolin
    • By soolin 17th May 11, 6:13 PM
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    soolin
    Sorry soolin but I have installed auction software for a local auction house. They CAN manage it at the stand. You're assuming that the BCA is using the same software you've seen, assuming you've actually had first hand experience....
    Originally posted by Hammyman
    The system I am familair with displays on the rostrum to the auctioneer but is managed away from the podium by a third party. It is now fairly common in large auction houses and the auctioener has no control over it. For the items i buy the timings wouldn't work anyway as we are talking several lots a minute .
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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  • 1connect
    Seriously I posted this to advise people of what I saw, and to advise them to go personally to a hall to bid, anyone in the hall seeing this would agree with what I said and what appeared to be happening..
    I'm not going to defend it, I have better things to do, no one will get a rise from me because I don't really care if you believe it or not.
    However the matter has been reported as have people who have commented breaking MSE rules.
    • harveybobbles
    • By harveybobbles 18th May 11, 9:33 AM
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    harveybobbles
    I have better things to do.
    Originally posted by 1connect
    erm..............

    However the matter has been reported as have people who have commented breaking MSE rules.
    Originally posted by 1connect
  • Oliver14
    I think the OP needs to find out how auctions actually work.
    'The More I know about people the Better I like my Dog'
    Samuel Clemens
    • soolin
    • By soolin 18th May 11, 10:33 AM
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    soolin
    Seriously I posted this to advise people of what I saw, and to advise them to go personally to a hall to bid, anyone in the hall seeing this would agree with what I said and what appeared to be happening..
    I'm not going to defend it, I have better things to do, no one will get a rise from me because I don't really care if you believe it or not.
    However the matter has been reported as have people who have commented breaking MSE rules.
    Originally posted by 1connect
    You've reported yourself for being in breach of MSE rules?, if you think you have then it is easier just to remove or edit your post to take out anything that you feel is in breach.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • Chocmonster7
    • By Chocmonster7 18th May 11, 10:46 AM
    • 2,298 Posts
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    Chocmonster7
    My Father has been in the motor trade for many many years and often came home saying "the wall bought more cars than anyone else today..."
  • voodoochild1579
    I saw this post by chance and thought to add to the debate!

    On auction day the auctioneer’s role is to encourage bidding, take bids and sell the vehicle under the hammer. You could say that the auctioneer is the showman, as they take centre stage on auction day.

    The auctioneer is responsible for the performance of the auction that day, auctioneers are experienced in the value of vehicles therefore if the auctioneer believes that the vehicle is worth X and be bid Y he may well try to encourage further bidding, so changing to lower increments is one way and often the bidders will try to encourage lower increments, that is part and parcel of the job.

    Bidders in a busy hall are competing against each other; often they do not want their nearest competitor getting a vehicle he can sell off his forecourt, or he may have a buyer for the vehicle, therefore staring at the auctioneer, hand signals behind their back, flick of a catalogue, a wink…. The list goes on, this can also lead to buyer disputes where two buyers believe they have bought the vehicle because of they not so obvious bidding.

    RFW commented about selling 12%, most vehicle auctions that sell only 12% of entry would not last that long!! Most sales I have conducted will sell on average 72% of entry made up of several vendor sections, some of these can a 100% conversion some 50% depending on market conditions, glad he didn’t take the job!

    On-line bidding is fairly new to the UK and has been accepted by most vehicle auction houses and is in real time, 1 connect made the comment that the bid was on on-line and the auctioneer did not look up, did you notice the hall screens? Did they change colour with the bid increments? The system they use is fully automated with a clerk to enter the hall bids only, I can put the record straight that although the bidding in the hall has ceased it can continue with a number of on-line bidders fighting it out on-line FACT! The on-line bidder presses the bid – No One Else!

    BCA & Manheim are the market leaders in the UK and their systems have been accepted as “The Norm”, and is in my experience disliked by many of the floor bidders as its additional competition, I don’t want to make a huge thing about it - but with over 22yrs in the vehicle auction business and people who don’t understand new processes and technology need to be careful making statements about working practices with out hard fact! Now, I can write a book about motor traders and dealer “tricks of the trade”………..
    • RFW
    • By RFW 23rd Nov 11, 11:54 AM
    • 8,759 Posts
    • 5,092 Thanks
    RFW

    RFW commented about selling 12%, most vehicle auctions that sell only 12% of entry would not last that long!! Most sales I have conducted will sell on average 72% of entry made up of several vendor sections, some of these can a 100% conversion some 50% depending on market conditions, glad he didnít take the job!
    Originally posted by voodoochild1579
    I won't say too much more about it as time and lack of facts prevent it on an open forum, but they are still trading and have more than one branch, which was how they worked it, moving cars from one place to another. I'm sure other branches have different sale rates, at the time they were charging per entry and other fees to the private vendors at least, so they were still getting paid without a sale. Obviously you know vehicle auctions better than me, my auction experience tends to be from other areas and not vehicles, although I have sold a fair few.

    That said I'm sure there are still a fair amount of car auctions with a pretty low turnout of buyers where the auctioneer takes more than a fair share of "bids on behalf of the vendor", if they accepted every bid, sold without reserve and didn't take any 'invisible' bids they too wouldn't last long.
    .
  • 1connect
    yeah yeah ... yawn ...

    my post was to warn people, using my knowledge, my observations of the day and the truth ...its not surprising we are Rip Off Britain when people so readily accept unfair practice against the consumer...

    perhaps the people defending the auction house and or their practices will also be very pleased regarding their own personal fuel hikes , bank charges , admin charges and credit card surcharges? perhaps they will ask for a pay drop at work and also park on a double yellow line and get a ticket just so they can patronise others about how "things work" ... it is the willingness of acceptance of the unacceptable that is the root cause of the problem ... so as they say if your not part of the solution you are definitely part of the problem ...

    thanks to all who offered their expert opinion and judgement , neither was asked for , but thanks anyway , anyway you had better be off now as you have some serious patronising to do later today as you troll your way through boards wearing the expert hat you made for yourself.

    however , thanks to any "CONSTRUCTIVE" commentators.
    Last edited by 1connect; 02-01-2012 at 9:07 AM.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 2nd Jan 12, 10:18 AM
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    shaun from Africa
    You appear to have made a basic mistake in what you thought was happening.

    The auctioneer was taking bids from the Hall and the Net except this is what I saw happen, the hall bids finished, he then carried on rattling off fake bids against the internet bidder forcing up the price by some £800 or so, and when the web bidders bids where exhausted he was left with a fake hall bid, I then saw the bid click BACK to the WEB BIDDER , yes they clicked the software to get the max bid to re focus on the REAL bidder ... UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!
    How do you know that there was only 1 web bidder?
    If there were 2 or more then these would be treated exactly the same as if there were 2 auction hall bidders and the auctioneer would still read out the current bids shown on his monitor.

    It would be the same process if there was a single web bidder and a proxy bidder.
    The auctioneer would treat both of them as if they were stood in the room and he would increase the proxy bid in increments so that the proxy was bidding against the web bidder.
    • QuackQuackOops
    • By QuackQuackOops 2nd Jan 12, 1:03 PM
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    QuackQuackOops
    OP, The practice is called Shill Bidding and is illegal.
    Are you suggesting that this company are blatantly acting illegally in front of hoards of auction savvy people every day but none of them recognise whats happening except for you with your superior knowledge and mind reading abilities?

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