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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 10:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 3:08 PM.
    Report inappropriate posts: forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com




Page 159
    • RandomQ
    • By RandomQ 14th May 19, 9:18 AM
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    RandomQ
    Database Chinese walls

    TV Licensing no longer have a legal power to collect data on TV sales from retailers. This was abolished in 2013.

    They buy general name and address data from commercial agencies, so it is possible that you will receive letters from them addressed to you by name at some point.

    Even if they begin communicating to you by name, this has no bearing on their "investigation", because having a name for your address is of no use to them without some form of accompanying evidence of evasion. That can only be obtained by talking to you. If you never talk to them, and never let them in, they cannot obtain that evidence. They do not and cannot issue summonses based purely on "paper trail" evidence.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    I pride myself on not being on almost any database, I am not on voters role, do not obtain credit or use any organisation that does Credit Searches including so called "soft checks". I am opted out of all NHS sharing.

    Yet these scum got a variation of my name (misspelt), the only other use of that mistake that I have seen is from a shareholder list that just happens to be run by Capita.

    Captita runs a huge number of databases and a suitable IT techie can access the backend of these databases to export to a master DB, strictly for internal use / verification you understand. I do not have evidence of this but it not an obvious or common mistake that they made.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 14th May 19, 9:37 AM
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    Cornucopia
    A couple of years ago TVL began buying commercial marketing data that comprised names and addresses of opted-in individuals from a company specialising in such database operations.

    The upshot of that is that if you are on TVL's list of unlicensed addresses and they can match your address with the commercial data sources, they have your name/the name you used when registering with the original commercial entity. I think a combination of DPA rules and internal policy limits them to using the name for 6 months before reverting communications to "the legal occupier".
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 14th May 19, 9:44 AM
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    Browntoa
    Just wasted 10 minutes of the online chat on a 3rd party website via an incognito session on Chrome .

    Are you the real TV licence people ?

    Why do you not make it clear you are 3rd party

    Oh , it's at the bottom of the page , it's a very long page , why is it not at the top ?

    So you are basically hiding you are a 3rd party

    I've taken a screenshot , let's see what the ASA think then

    I consider it's a scam that's why

    .....etc
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's , Boost your income and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 14th May 19, 10:01 AM
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    Cornucopia
    And if you really want to upset them, do what I did to one little oik.... Ask "You have photo ID ?.... Give". Shut the door on them, and if they are still there five/ten minutes later tell them "I have been unable to confirm your identity and have been instructed to destroy your ID card."
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    Technically this is theft/criminal damage, and I would not recommend it. By all means "ID Check" them, but do not retain or damage their ID card.

    Messing them up is pretty easy without doing anything that could land YOU in trouble.

    Two suggestions:-

    1. When they ask "Are you Mr/Mrs X?" from the data on their database, you can go back and forth a few times refusing to give them any info unless they confirm their identity (they like to hide it). You can then ask "what is it regarding?" and if they are following correct DPA protocol they should refuse to tell you unless you confirm that you are the person they want to speak to - which you never do.

    2. As soon as you realise that they are TVL, simply tell them that if they wish to interview you under caution, you will exercise your right to decline under PACE, and that there is therefore no reason for them to be there.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 14-05-2019 at 10:09 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 14th May 19, 10:08 AM
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    Cornucopia
    I do not know if this is new but is first time I have seen it

    It uses one of those privacy abusing window envelopes

    In the window it has a Yellow Triangle with exclamation mark and word CAUTION underneath it, a bit like a toxic warning.
    Originally posted by RandomQ
    Yes, this is new in the last couple of months.

    The image is a yellow warning triangle on the background of a map.


    On the envelope it says in RED: "Advance warning of possible interruption". WTH does that mean?

    Inside it says: "No TV Licence? No watching live TV. Expect the interruption of an enforcement visit".

    Enforcement of WHAT, who do these scum think they are a High Court Enforcement Officer?

    They have no right to FORCE me to do anything!

    The envelope also seems a gross invasion of privacy.
    They've been using these window envelopes for a long while, and I have a feeling that the ICO (Information Commissioner's Office) has already been asked to investigate and found it to be acceptable because they do not divulge actual personal info, and because there is a law enforcement exemption.

    Like all the letters, I think the language could/should be clearer. I think that the notion of an "interruption" to illegal activities is fine. The problem is that the letter is being sent to innocent people as well.

    You are correct that they cannot force you to cooperate with them, in fact they cannot even make you answer the door.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • RandomQ
    • By RandomQ 15th May 19, 12:07 PM
    • 210 Posts
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    RandomQ
    Complain to ICO
    Yes, this is new in the last couple of months.

    The image is a yellow warning triangle on the background of a map.

    They've been using these window envelopes for a long while, and I have a feeling that the ICO (Information Commissioner's Office) has already been asked to investigate and found it to be acceptable because they do not divulge actual personal info, and because there is a law enforcement exemption.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    That is interesting, I was on the phone to the ICO seeking advice on another matter and they said that my address IS personal data because of the likelyhood that it can identify me, especially if there is other information or documents in possession or freely available.

    I get these sent to The Legal Occupier now, but I imagine it is the same if they have your name, also a postman/woman has other letters for same address so pretty much knows who you are.

    We would not accept it if a credit card company had a window on the envelope that said "you owe us money" so we must ask the ICO why they think it is OK for ones privacy to be breached in this way.

    These letters pass through a plethora of people's hands, they may be left in a communal area and it is none of anyone's business other than the occupant of the property.

    I think more people need to make a complaint to the ICO on this.
    • RandomQ
    • By RandomQ 15th May 19, 12:12 PM
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    RandomQ
    Yes, this is new in the last couple of months.

    Like all the letters, I think the language could/should be clearer. I think that the notion of an "interruption" to illegal activities is fine. The problem is that the letter is being sent to innocent people as well.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    That is funny I had not even realised that they were trying to suggest illegal activities, I am also not clear that they can interrupt anything other than my peace & quiet (by knocking at the door).
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 15th May 19, 6:31 PM
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    Cornucopia
    That is interesting, I was on the phone to the ICO seeking advice on another matter and they said that my address IS personal data because of the likelyhood that it can identify me, especially if there is other information or documents in possession or freely available.
    Originally posted by RandomQ
    I think it depends on the context in which your address is disclosed. In this case, they are using the address to send a letter, which is a legitimate purpose.

    I get these sent to The Legal Occupier now, but I imagine it is the same if they have your name, also a postman/woman has other letters for same address so pretty much knows who you are.
    Actually, they DO vary the tone of the letters according to whether they are addressed by name or to the occupier. That allows them more scope for harsher language when the recipient is anonymous. For example they have/had the "see you in Court" letter which came very close to stating that a Court case was imminent, and that was never sent to a named recipient because it could have constituted defamation.

    We would not accept it if a credit card company had a window on the envelope that said "you owe us money" so we must ask the ICO why they think it is OK for ones privacy to be breached in this way.
    If you look at the actual info being displayed by TVL in the windows, it is often very cryptic, and I'm sure this is intended. I'm not saying it is right, but I do think TVL have thought it through.

    I think more people need to make a complaint to the ICO on this.
    Yes - this is what it takes, and there are a number of DPA-related angles with regards to TVL operations. That could increase if people were prepared to exercise their rights under DPA - to make a SAR, and to request TVL to cease processing their data.


    By way of disclosure/disclaimer, I do not receive TVL letters because the BBC banned TVL from engaging with me, so I don't have personal experience of the most recent letters.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 15-05-2019 at 6:33 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • cw18
    • By cw18 15th May 19, 8:31 PM
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    cw18
    As a postie I recognise these letters with the briefest glance, but have to admit that's only because I receive them. There are one or two others in my office that had a vague idea some of them were to do with TVL, but weren't sure quite what (until I enlightened them). So if you have a regular postie there is a chance that he/she is fully aware of the fact your address is unlicensed - not that I think any of them would actually care.....
    Cheryl
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 15th May 19, 10:48 PM
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    FreeBear
    So if you have a regular postie there is a chance that he/she is fully aware of the fact your address is unlicensed - not that I think any of them would actually care.....
    Originally posted by cw18

    You're right. They have bigger problems to worry about such as vicious dogs, dangerous cats, and management imposing greater work loads whilst trying to cut hours.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • cw18
    • By cw18 16th May 19, 5:48 AM
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    cw18
    You're right. They have bigger problems to worry about such as vicious dogs, dangerous cats, and management imposing greater work loads whilst trying to cut hours.
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    Sounds like someone else knows the job inside out

    Totally agree about cats. Had a couple of fingers swiped through a letterbox over a year ago. Took 5 mins to stop it bleeding (luckily I carry tissues and plasters), and had to visit a drop-in centre to get it checked and dressed after work. I still have a scar from it !!!
    Cheryl
    • childofbaahl
    • By childofbaahl 17th May 19, 3:50 AM
    • 78 Posts
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    childofbaahl
    I haven't watched live TV / used iPlayer (being a Doctor Who fan can have its downside... Still haven't seen any of Jodie's Doctor) in so long I forget exactly how many years it has been - I fill out the online declaration every 2-3 years or so and haven't had the misfortune of receiving any letters.

    No one has every called at my place and hopefully no one every will but if someone does, do they have a uniform that identifies them as my front door is solid and most times I never know who is there until I open it. Though I am getting another security camera for the front of my property this year.

    No issues - Just trawling the forums on a night shift and the idea came to me whilst reading the last 5 or 6 pages.
    • cw18
    • By cw18 17th May 19, 9:05 AM
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    cw18
    No one has every called at my place and hopefully no one every will but if someone does, do they have a uniform that identifies them
    Originally posted by childofbaahl
    Not as best I can tell. If they did then people wouldn't have to ask them for ID.
    Cheryl
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 17th May 19, 9:32 AM
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    Cornucopia
    Not as best I can tell.
    Originally posted by cw18
    No they don't have a uniform. The typical TVL field worker is a middle-aged man in casual clothing. They used to be equipped with a clipboard, but now a hand-held computer is more likely. There are a few female TVL field staff, but they seem to be a small minority.

    If they did then people wouldn't have to ask them for ID.
    There are only a few instances where uniformed staff are given a presumed authority by laws or bye-laws, and even if TVL gave their staff a uniform, it would still be worthwhile to check their ID.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • childofbaahl
    • By childofbaahl 17th May 19, 9:08 PM
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    childofbaahl
    Thanks for the information - I always ask for ID, even from uniformed callers. I'll just stick to the tried / trusted 'Jehovah's witness' response: "Thanks but no thanks" and close the door without confirming or denying anything.
    • cw18
    • By cw18 17th May 19, 9:35 PM
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    • 85,940 Thanks
    cw18
    I'll just stick to the tried / trusted 'Jehovah's witness' response: "Thanks but no thanks"
    Originally posted by childofbaahl
    I've always found that "I'm a blood donor" serves well for discouraging Jehovah's from stopping to chat It's one my Dad used, and it's true for both of us. Not sure it would quite so effectively with Crapita though
    Cheryl
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 18th May 19, 11:40 AM
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    Jackmydad
    I thought a line of salt across the threshold kept them out.
    • castle96
    • By castle96 18th May 19, 12:43 PM
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    castle96
    what, JW's or TVL's ? (or both !)
    • childofbaahl
    • By childofbaahl 19th May 19, 1:26 AM
    • 78 Posts
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    childofbaahl
    I used to know the whole demon exorcism passage used on 'Supernatural' I might give that one a try if they come calling. I do keep a bottle of holy water by the front door for a mini font that I have!
    • LeeUK
    • By LeeUK 19th May 19, 7:05 AM
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    • 2,886 Thanks
    LeeUK
    TVL Goons who visit my house are all either ex cons or old men who wear jumpers on top of a shirt and tie.
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