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  • FIRST POST
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 8th Mar 18, 12:25 PM
    • 1,713Posts
    • 1,269Thanks
    cantcope
    Statement of reasons - lost tribunal
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 18, 12:25 PM
    Statement of reasons - lost tribunal 8th Mar 18 at 12:25 PM
    Finally got the statement of reasons from the court after losing my PIP tribunal on 12th Jan.
    Basically because i can drive an automatic vehicle using a steering wheel that means i have no problem with strength in my arms and legs or grip in my hands so its reasonable to assume i can cook, dress, pop out and not drop tiny tablets and bathe with no issues other than requiring an aid... this is total [Remove]:'( i have no choice but to do these things with risk as i have no support at home.
    They even mentioned that because its not been flagged to a health visitor or social services that i don't have support at home yet manage to look after a 5 year old i can clearly look after myself too without risk..awesome. ([Removed])

    Also, because i can hold down a job and walk into my building at work 3 x a week from my disabled parking spot (30 mtrs with a rest in between) its reasonable to assume i can walk farther than 20 metres regularly, consistently and without risk (again, [Removed] :'()

    so it seems it doesnt matter what i said in the hearing, or what my neuro and ms said on their letters and reports, they made a decision on assumptions that DWP had scored me correctly. Excellent

    sorry for the rant. just needed to get it out somewhere.
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam2; 08-03-2018 at 10:14 PM.
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
Page 1
    • Danday
    • By Danday 8th Mar 18, 11:55 PM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:55 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:55 PM
    That old chestnut about driving a car. That same passage has been used for almost anyone that admits that they drive. Assumptions, assumptions - that's about as much as they normally do.

    They also normally use the stock phrase 'as you do not have input from a consultant you are not as disabled/ill as you are making out'

    Just ignore the rubbish and ask for an MR and prepare for an appeal. In one of my reports I was told that as I had not seen a consultant within the past two years they must assume that my disabilities are now improved.
    Last edited by Danday; 09-03-2018 at 12:00 AM.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 9th Mar 18, 7:01 AM
    • 2,845 Posts
    • 2,808 Thanks
    poppy12345
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 7:01 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 7:01 AM
    That old chestnut about driving a car. That same passage has been used for almost anyone that admits that they drive. Assumptions, assumptions - that's about as much as they normally do.

    They also normally use the stock phrase 'as you do not have input from a consultant you are not as disabled/ill as you are making out'

    Just ignore the rubbish and ask for an MR and prepare for an appeal. In one of my reports I was told that as I had not seen a consultant within the past two years they must assume that my disabilities are now improved.
    Originally posted by Danday
    That would impossible because the OP lost the Tribunal, which is why it states " statement of reasons"
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 9th Mar 18, 10:07 AM
    • 2,160 Posts
    • 2,531 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #4
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:07 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:07 AM
    Just ignore the rubbish and ask for an MR and prepare for an appeal. .
    Originally posted by Danday
    This was his appeal. He lost it.
    It's your "advice" which is rubbish.
    OP - just ignore Danday.

    As poppy says, if the OP wishes to he can request a S of R. If he can find an error in law in the S of R , he can then appeal to the UT to have that decision set aside.

    OP - this is helpful on what constitutes an error in law:
    https://healthunlocked.com/fibromyalgia-action-uk/posts/130083431/appealing-to-the-upper-tribunal-against-a-first-tier-tribunal-decision.-go-get-em-tiger

    However, if Penitent chances on your thread, he has successfully navigated this process - so pay attention to any comments he makes. His advice is worthwhile.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 09-03-2018 at 10:42 AM.
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 9th Mar 18, 11:49 AM
    • 1,713 Posts
    • 1,269 Thanks
    cantcope
    • #5
    • 9th Mar 18, 11:49 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Mar 18, 11:49 AM
    Thanks for the replies Poppy and Alice. i'm not sure making an assumption is an error of law but i will do some research.
    I'm so angry. if i could do these things without risk of injury i wouldnt have appealed in the first place! i dont have any choice but to attempt to get them done as i have nobody to help me
    my son doesn't have a health visitor spying on him because she discharged him at 2. He's now 5 :/
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 9th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    • 1,713 Posts
    • 1,269 Thanks
    cantcope
    • #6
    • 9th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    Honestly, my advice is pretty limited in that it only extends as far as the grounds of appeal after my own !!!!show of a FTT (insufficient findings of fact, inadequate reasoning and being denied the opportunity to take part via telephone). In other words, they didn't properly evaluate the evidence, didn't address several points I raised in my appeal request, and chose descriptors without any clear reason why.
    Originally posted by Penitent
    i just dont understand how some people can get it so wrong whilst others get what they are entitled to.
    i had medical letters and reports backing up all of the descriptors i was appealing for. I've always felt like i had no chance of losing so am still stumped even after their statement as its just so unreasonable :'(
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 9th Mar 18, 2:11 PM
    • 1,713 Posts
    • 1,269 Thanks
    cantcope
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 18, 2:11 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 18, 2:11 PM
    Thank you for the detailed reply. I think i may give the ms society a call on Monday as they have legal teams that might be able to help me.
    At least they'll give me an honest answer as to whether its worth challenging. This past year has caused me untold problems with extra stress, anxiety, fatigue which culminated in a huge relapse in the summer which meant my son had to go and live with his dad for six weeks while i learned to walk again in hospital .

    i agree the system needed changing but this is such a dangerous change for people.
    I hope you get the results you deserve xx
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • feelion
    • By feelion 9th Mar 18, 5:04 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    feelion
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:04 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:04 PM
    I would really recommend familiarising yourself with the government guidelines on assessments and assessors. I was supposed to change from DLA to PIP three years ago. Failed assessment, MR and tribunal. The comments were ludicrous and I was severely depressed as a result.

    I finally reapplied, and took a complete different tact. Everything I said, I gave examples, and provided less but more in detail evidence. I failed the assessment. I then took a sterile approach to my appeal. I talked about myself in the third person, I constantly referred back to the government guidelines, citing quotes and did this for every discrepancy. I pointed out contradictions. I went through every detail on the assessors report, highlighting errors and contradictions even in her own report. I explained that although I could drive etc, being able to perform one task does not automatically mean I was able to do another... cited their own guidance on this. I can sometimes work, walk etc, but this isn't consistent. I do not visit doctors, they cannot help me. I also gave diaries, showing how I approached each descriptor and had help converting these into graphs.
    I was finally awarded high care and mobility on MR.

    The system is broken, but we all know that, and I do think a big part of it is luck of the drawer unfortunately, but this time it has really taught me how to approach the process. Heartless, clinical and in detail.

    I would definitely recommend reapplying should your error in law not work out. Take a different approach. I am not saying yours was wrong, it is them who are wrong. Read all the guidance and help.
    I found these crucial especially government website ones. Unfortunately it will not let me post the link.

    I hope it all works out but please don't ever give up.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 10th Mar 18, 10:18 AM
    • 8,351 Posts
    • 1,978 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 18, 10:18 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 18, 10:18 AM
    This suggestion of "Reapplying" raises a big question ...

    What do the current PIP rules say about the number of times that anyone is allowed to apply / reapply for PIP ?
    ie) If you are continually turned down - is there anything to prevent you from reapplying again and again - ot is it down to DWP refusing you the application forms after a certain number of attempts ?
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 10th Mar 18, 11:16 AM
    • 11,583 Posts
    • 13,487 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    This suggestion of "Reapplying" raises a big question ...

    What do the current PIP rules say about the number of times that anyone is allowed to apply / reapply for PIP ?
    ie) If you are continually turned down - is there anything to prevent you from reapplying again and again - ot is it down to DWP refusing you the application forms after a certain number of attempts ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    You can reapply the day after a decision if you wish.

    This link is about old but can't find anything more up to date but believe it still applies.

    https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/7871/

    Having said that my personal opinion is that this is easier if you have a worsening of your condition or a new condition which affects your daily needs.

    It would be interesting to know if the OP had help through a benefits specialist completing the application or doing the appeal.
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 13th Mar 18, 4:32 PM
    • 1,713 Posts
    • 1,269 Thanks
    cantcope
    thanks all.

    I had no help other than what i read on the websites that have been mentioned on this forum. Just more letters and physical assessment reports from my neurologist. they disagreed with his mobility assessment saying that i told them in the appeal (which i did) that one day a week i could walk the 30 metres to the office from my disabled parking spot without my walking stick or crutches.
    They missed out that i also told them i did this with a rest in between once i got to the main door before getting to the lifts and that the reason i didn't use my stick is because i have a heavy laptop bag OVER my shoulder and the stick put me off balance even more than i already am. They just said that it was reasonable to assume i could do this safely and consistently every day with or without my sticks. They also say i must have a strong grip to carry my laptop bag!!!....

    I have MS. i am worse now than when i first applied, in part due to the stress caused last year because of this and a big relapse in the summer.
    My condition is unlikely to improve, but will progress.

    The whole thing has floored me to the point that i just cant be bothered with the fight anymore
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
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