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    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 9th Feb 18, 1:36 PM
    • 9,194 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    • #2
    • 9th Feb 18, 1:36 PM
    1st Class / 2nd Class
    • #2
    • 9th Feb 18, 1:36 PM
    Some 30years ago, I went from Portsmouth to Glasgow on a rail journey in which 2nd class was totally full (overflowing) - so I sat in a virtually empty 1st class carriage - all of the time, I was on edge - expecting the ticket collector to kick me out - but he didn't !
    Could someone please confirm whether the fact that 2nd class was full is a valid reason to use 1st class ?
    And on what grounds could someone be kicked our ?
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 9th Feb 18, 2:08 PM
    • 22,627 Posts
    • 18,621 Thanks
    agrinnall
    • #3
    • 9th Feb 18, 2:08 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Feb 18, 2:08 PM
    Could someone please confirm whether the fact that 2nd class was full is a valid reason to use 1st class ?
    And on what grounds could someone be kicked our ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    I don't believe it is, and you could be kicked out on the grounds of not having a valid ticket for the class of travel (or asked to pay an additional fare). When you can sit is 1st is when directed to do so by a member of the train staff, although of course there's nothing to stop you asking rather than waiting to be told (assuming you actually see a member of staff that is).
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 9th Feb 18, 2:35 PM
    • 9,194 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    • #4
    • 9th Feb 18, 2:35 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Feb 18, 2:35 PM
    I don't believe it is, and you could be kicked out on the grounds of not having a valid ticket for the class of travel (or asked to pay an additional fare). When you can sit is 1st is when directed to do so by a member of the train staff, although of course there's nothing to stop you asking rather than waiting to be told (assuming you actually see a member of staff that is).
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    But surely - the train company has a responsibility for getting a ticket holding customer from A to B - and if they have not provided enough seats in enough carriages for a particular journey - especially when a 1st class carriage is virtually empty - the ticket collector (or whoever) would have a hard job giving their reasons for not allowing the customer to remain in 1st class - should it come to court ?
    I remember - getting some weird looks from "obvious" normal 1st class passengers - when a 20 something year old got into "their" carriage - although nobody said anything !
    As for paying an additional fare - what if (as was the case) - I had no more money with me - would I have been kicked off the train - in the middle of nowhere ?
    Last edited by 50Twuncle; 09-02-2018 at 2:37 PM.
    • stragglebod
    • By stragglebod 9th Feb 18, 5:39 PM
    • 484 Posts
    • 431 Thanks
    stragglebod
    • #5
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:39 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:39 PM
    But surely - the train company has a responsibility for getting a ticket holding customer from A to B - and if they have not provided enough seats in enough carriages for a particular journey - especially when a 1st class carriage is virtually empty - the ticket collector (or whoever) would have a hard job giving their reasons for not allowing the customer to remain in 1st class - should it come to court ?
    I remember - getting some weird looks from "obvious" normal 1st class passengers - when a 20 something year old got into "their" carriage - although nobody said anything !
    As for paying an additional fare - what if (as was the case) - I had no more money with me - would I have been kicked off the train - in the middle of nowhere ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    If you've not paid for 1st class, you've got no right to sit in first class. If you get caught you'll - if you're lucky - get charged a penalty fare, which would be twice the price of a first class single.

    If the inspector thought you were deliberately fair dodging - which of course you would be - or you didn't have the money to pay a penalty fare, then you'd be reported for possible prosecution, which would be much much more expensive if you were able to negotiate a settlement out of court, and astrnomonically more expensive if it went to court.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 9th Feb 18, 7:11 PM
    • 9,194 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    • #6
    • 9th Feb 18, 7:11 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Feb 18, 7:11 PM
    If you've not paid for 1st class, you've got no right to sit in first class. If you get caught you'll - if you're lucky - get charged a penalty fare, which would be twice the price of a first class single.

    If the inspector thought you were deliberately fair dodging - which of course you would be - or you didn't have the money to pay a penalty fare, then you'd be reported for possible prosecution, which would be much much more expensive if you were able to negotiate a settlement out of court, and astrnomonically more expensive if it went to court.
    Originally posted by stragglebod
    What about "Duty of Care" - doesn't that count for anything
    Needless to say - I haven't been on a train for 25 + years and very much doubt whether I ever will again !
    • Mids_Costcutter
    • By Mids_Costcutter 13th Feb 18, 8:59 PM
    • 807 Posts
    • 8,021 Thanks
    Mids_Costcutter
    • #7
    • 13th Feb 18, 8:59 PM
    Compensation for overcrowding?
    • #7
    • 13th Feb 18, 8:59 PM
    Sometimes when overcrowded the guard will declassify first class, announcing that passengers with standard class tickets may sit there. When they decide to do this I'd like to know as in my experience it seems to be a bit random.

    Furthermore how the Consumer Rights Act could be interpreted for overcrowding could be tricky. Any more news on this?
    Last edited by Mids_Costcutter; 14-02-2018 at 8:27 PM.
    • Rail Staff
    • By Rail Staff 23rd Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    Rail Staff
    • #8
    • 23rd Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    I'm afraid you pay to travel from one place to another, you do not pay for a seat. In the course of my duties I am obliged to remove people from first class pretty much every day unless they purchase a new ticket, there is frequently a sudden exodus from first class when I walk in asking for tickets!

    Sitting in first on the understanding that the worst that can happen is that you pay difference is also a thing of the past. At best you'll be buying a whole new ticket, at worst you'll soon be seeing a magistrate.
    Employee of a National Rail train company.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 23rd Feb 18, 2:43 PM
    • 9,194 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    • #9
    • 23rd Feb 18, 2:43 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Feb 18, 2:43 PM
    I'm afraid you pay to travel from one place to another, you do not pay for a seat. In the course of my duties I am obliged to remove people from first class pretty much every day unless they purchase a new ticket, there is frequently a sudden exodus from first class when I walk in asking for tickets!

    Sitting in first on the understanding that the worst that can happen is that you pay difference is also a thing of the past. At best you'll be buying a whole new ticket, at worst you'll soon be seeing a magistrate.
    Originally posted by Rail Staff
    Well - the Consumer Rights Act 2017 offers Rail companies a choice of either upgrading customers at the companys expense or a refund - guess which they will probably have to offer ?
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 23rd Feb 18, 3:08 PM
    • 3,072 Posts
    • 3,468 Thanks
    Stoke
    I'm afraid you pay to travel from one place to another, you do not pay for a seat. In the course of my duties I am obliged to remove people from first class pretty much every day unless they purchase a new ticket, there is frequently a sudden exodus from first class when I walk in asking for tickets!

    Sitting in first on the understanding that the worst that can happen is that you pay difference is also a thing of the past. At best you'll be buying a whole new ticket, at worst you'll soon be seeing a magistrate.
    Originally posted by Rail Staff
    I just avoid paying for tickets altogether these days, better value..... certainly until London Midland refund me the journey in January last year, in-which they left me stranded in sub zero temperatures with no way of getting home and no way of getting anywhere safe really.

    They refused my refund. So I refuse to pay for future journeys. Works well I reckon.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 23rd Feb 18, 3:18 PM
    • 9,194 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    I just avoid paying for tickets altogether these days, better value..... certainly until London Midland refund me the journey in January last year, in-which they left me stranded in sub zero temperatures with no way of getting home and no way of getting anywhere safe really.

    They refused my refund. So I refuse to pay for future journeys. Works well I reckon.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    And you accepted this decision did you ?
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 23rd Feb 18, 3:37 PM
    • 3,072 Posts
    • 3,468 Thanks
    Stoke
    And you accepted this decision did you ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    Nope. I didn't accept it, but I didn't have a choice. They review your case and either decide to pay or don't.

    They decided that the situation was out of their hands caused by weather, however at the time, they said that we couldn't travel due to mechanical fault with the train which isn't an 'act of god' but poor or inadequate maintenance.

    The train stopped due to engine failure, plain and simple. Therefore I should have been refunded.

    The only reason I paid for my tickets before this unsavoury incident was out of honesty. You are never checked on these particular trains, so it is up to you whether you fancy paying.
    They failed in their duty of care (leaving many passengers stranded, in some cases hundreds of miles away from home), and they failed to recompense me a fairly pitiful amount (16) when they had the chance. I really don't have any sympathy for them.
    Last edited by Stoke; 23-02-2018 at 3:39 PM.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 23rd Feb 18, 6:43 PM
    • 22,627 Posts
    • 18,621 Thanks
    agrinnall
    They refused my refund. So I refuse to pay for future journeys. Works well I reckon.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    I hope you enjoy jail.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/judge-blasts-decision-jail-man-10973819
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 23rd Feb 18, 8:35 PM
    • 14,675 Posts
    • 16,863 Thanks
    KeithP
    Well - the Consumer Rights Act 2017 offers Rail companies a choice of either upgrading customers at the companys expense or a refund - guess which they will probably have to offer ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    Link required please to this Consumer Rights Act 2017.
    .
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