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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Eesha
    • By MSE Eesha 2nd Sep 16, 1:45 PM
    • 120Posts
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    MSE Eesha
    How much are parents supposed to give their children when they go to university?
    • #1
    • 2nd Sep 16, 1:45 PM
    How much are parents supposed to give their children when they go to university? 2nd Sep 16 at 1:45 PM
    This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

    Read Martin's "How much are parents supposed to give their children when they go to university?" Blog.

    Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.
Page 1
    • glasgowdan
    • By glasgowdan 5th Sep 16, 10:38 AM
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    glasgowdan
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 16, 10:38 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 16, 10:38 AM
    Does it mention anything about students working while studying? That's where I'd expect the bulk of their cash deficit to come from.
    • Mrs Arcanum
    • By Mrs Arcanum 5th Sep 16, 4:45 PM
    • 20,362 Posts
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    Mrs Arcanum
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:45 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:45 PM
    Your amounts are wrong for those just starting their final year as it appears to be based on the new loans. We fall between 42 & 45k but our daughter will only get 5,400 maintenance loan.
    Truth always poses doubts & questions. Only lies are 100% believable, because they don't need to justify reality. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon, The Labyrinth of the Spirits
    • Naf
    • By Naf 5th Sep 16, 4:56 PM
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    Naf
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:56 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:56 PM
    Also extremely useful is the percentage of parental income which theyre expected to stump up:

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    - Mark Twain
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, its just going to knock over the pieces and strut around like its victorious.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 5th Sep 16, 10:16 PM
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    silvercar
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 16, 10:16 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 16, 10:16 PM
    Your article makes no mention (or include in the figures) that students who get the maximum support are also eligible for bursaries from the universities themselves. Students with parental income of <25k can often also receive a bursary of on average 2,000. Full table.

    Add that to the tables above to present a more accurate picture.

    Students with extremely well off parents and those with low income parents do very well, it is those in the middle that are often squeezed between loans that do not cover their needs and parents who can't afford to offer a lot of help.
    • sensibleshoes
    • By sensibleshoes 6th Sep 16, 7:59 AM
    • 44 Posts
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    sensibleshoes
    • #6
    • 6th Sep 16, 7:59 AM
    High income but low contribution
    • #6
    • 6th Sep 16, 7:59 AM
    Martin's blog highlights a problem that is overlooked by the simple calculation of the Student Loans Company.

    They just see a pot of money & assume the parents will contribute but sometimes family dynamics means that parents will not contribute the shortfall in the maintenance loan amount.

    In my family the student has a low maintenance loan based on his mothers' husbands high income. However he is not the father of the student & the relationship is not good so will not contribute. The student & his mother will have to find the shortfall. Tricky & stressful situation but that's family dynamics for you.
    • Naf
    • By Naf 6th Sep 16, 8:38 AM
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    Naf
    • #7
    • 6th Sep 16, 8:38 AM
    • #7
    • 6th Sep 16, 8:38 AM
    ...but that's family dynamics for you.
    Originally posted by sensibleshoes
    A part of me basically says "why should that be the state's problem?". It sounds harsh, but the state can't cover up for decisions which people make. Lots of students with higher (higher, theyre probably middling somewhere in the grand scheme) income parents really struggle at uni because of decisions made by their parents to take a bigger mortgage, expensive car or other debts instead of budgeting and planning to support their children through university. Should the state (given the premise on which the current system is based) basically subsidise parents' debts like that?

    The real unfairness in the current system is that parents with two children at uni simultaneously are somehow assumes as having double the income - i.e. each child is assesed separately as having parents with the same income. Again, there's an argument to be made for parental planning and budgeting; but its still the kids who are affected worst.

    The solution, obviously, is to treat students as adults, because they are! Fund all students the same regardless of parental income.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    - Mark Twain
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, its just going to knock over the pieces and strut around like its victorious.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 6th Sep 16, 9:18 AM
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    silvercar
    • #8
    • 6th Sep 16, 9:18 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Sep 16, 9:18 AM
    The real unfairness in the current system is that parents with two children at uni simultaneously are somehow assumes as having double the income -
    Not totally disagreeing with you but the comment above could easily be applied to the earlier statement you made:

    because of decisions made by their parents to take a bigger mortgage, expensive car or other debts instead of budgeting and planning to support their children through university.
    The decision in this case being to have their kids close together in age.

    The total cost (of support to 2 children) will be the same, but there is a higher expenditure in a short space of time than a family who spaced their children.

    To quote you again,
    A part of me basically says "why should that be the state's problem?".
    • Naf
    • By Naf 6th Sep 16, 9:57 AM
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    Naf
    • #9
    • 6th Sep 16, 9:57 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Sep 16, 9:57 AM
    Not totally disagreeing with you but the comment above could easily be applied to the earlier statement you made:
    Originally posted by silvercar
    Yes, and hence:

    Again, there's an argument to be made for parental planning and budgeting...
    Originally posted by Naf
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    - Mark Twain
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, its just going to knock over the pieces and strut around like its victorious.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 6th Sep 16, 3:00 PM
    • 39,286 Posts
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    silvercar
    Does it mention anything about students working while studying? That's where I'd expect the bulk of their cash deficit to come from.
    Originally posted by glasgowdan
    I think your missing the point. By all means students should work (if their course allows time and jobs are available), but the point of the blog was to provide a level playing field from which students can top up their loans/ grants/ parental contributions with work.
    • Naf
    • By Naf 6th Sep 16, 5:31 PM
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    • 2,307 Thanks
    Naf
    Your amounts are wrong for those just starting their final year as it appears to be based on the new loans. We fall between 42 & 45k but our daughter will only get 5,400 maintenance loan.
    Originally posted by Mrs Arcanum

    Final year students receive less since its not a full year (suposedly). They're expected to be working after graduating, so Student Finance figures are lower to not cover the summer period.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    - Mark Twain
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, its just going to knock over the pieces and strut around like its victorious.
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 6th Sep 16, 5:55 PM
    • 16,254 Posts
    • 30,257 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    Your article makes no mention (or include in the figures) that students who get the maximum support are also eligible for bursaries from the universities themselves. Students with parental income of <25k can often also receive a bursary of on average 2,000. Full table.

    Add that to the tables above to present a more accurate picture.

    Students with extremely well off parents and those with low income parents do very well, it is those in the middle that are often squeezed between loans that do not cover their needs and parents who can't afford to offer a lot of help.
    Originally posted by silvercar
    Many parents who say they can't afford to help forget the money they'll be saving by not having to keep the child at home. Even allowing for the loss of CB, most parents will be much better off when a child leaves home to go to university so should be able to afford to help, even if they initially think it isn't possible.
    • NottsBrown
    • By NottsBrown 6th Sep 16, 6:26 PM
    • 2 Posts
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    NottsBrown
    Students beware you don't get scammed in your repayments!!!
    I graduated from University in 2015 with a BSc Mathematics and Statistics from Newcastle. I then moved to London to start a job on 26k a year.

    When I started paying back my student loan (April 2016) my repayments were 37 a month. However in June I resigned from this post and was paid 4 months salary in one bulk payment, that month I ended up paying nearly 600 off my student loan.

    I spoke to the people at the Student Loan company this week to explain that this payment was just a bulk 4 months salary and whether it would be possible to rectify this deduction to be in line with what I had been paying on any other month, they said it would not be possible until April when I would then have to ring again (My bank has 3 blank months with no salary in). Considering that I have not been long out of university the fact that it couldn't be sorted out now has left me a little short changed (roughly 360) at the moment and I am concerned.

    My other concern is for people who are in jobs which reward employees with a bonus every 6 months or a year. In that months salary they will be deducted far more than they had in previous months due to the assumption of them earning that amount every month, (equating that to a yearly salary and taking 9%). In my case, to be paying back 600 a month on my student loan would give the assumption that my salary is 100K per year, which at 22 is farcical.

    As far as I am aware the student loan company will not deal with this in the same way as a tax rebate at the end of the financial year and students should be careful they don't end up paying more than they should. The only way seemingly that they will get it back is by chasing it up for themselves. I was wondering if Martin or anyone else has any advice on how to make sure that others don't get caught out paying back more than they should on the "loan" and how best I am to proceed with my own dilemma.
    • Naf
    • By Naf 6th Sep 16, 6:34 PM
    • 3,053 Posts
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    Naf
    I graduated from University in 2015 with a BSc Mathematics and Statistics from Newcastle. I then moved to London to start a job on 26k a year.

    When I started paying back my student loan (April 2016) my repayments were 37 a month. However in June I resigned from this post and was paid 4 months salary in one bulk payment, that month I ended up paying nearly 600 off my student loan.

    I spoke to the people at the Student Loan company this week to explain that this payment was just a bulk 4 months salary and whether it would be possible to rectify this deduction to be in line with what I had been paying on any other month, they said it would not be possible until April when I would then have to ring again (My bank has 3 blank months with no salary in). Considering that I have not been long out of university the fact that it couldn't be sorted out now has left me a little short changed (roughly 360) at the moment and I am concerned.

    My other concern is for people who are in jobs which reward employees with a bonus every 6 months or a year. In that months salary they will be deducted far more than they had in previous months due to the assumption of them earning that amount every month, (equating that to a yearly salary and taking 9%). In my case, to be paying back 600 a month on my student loan would give the assumption that my salary is 100K per year, which at 22 is farcical.

    As far as I am aware the student loan company will not deal with this in the same way as a tax rebate at the end of the financial year and students should be careful they don't end up paying more than they should. The only way seemingly that they will get it back is by chasing it up for themselves. I was wondering if Martin or anyone else has any advice on how to make sure that others don't get caught out paying back more than they should on the "loan" and how best I am to proceed with my own dilemma.
    Originally posted by NottsBrown

    AFAIK thats just the way it works. Like NI contributions its actually based on the individual pay packet's pro-rata amount, and you don't get a rebate across the year. Happy to be contradicted if I'm wrong, though.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    - Mark Twain
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, its just going to knock over the pieces and strut around like its victorious.
    • NottsBrown
    • By NottsBrown 6th Sep 16, 11:11 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    NottsBrown
    AFAIK thats just the way it works. Like NI contributions its actually based on the individual pay packet's pro-rata amount, and you don't get a rebate across the year. Happy to be contradicted if I'm wrong, though.
    Originally posted by Naf
    Thanks for the reply! Does this then mean that anyone who is not paid in monthly installments (opting for quarterly or similar) will lose out as a consequence of this?

    One of the reasons I'm wondering is because in my case I will be paying 3 times the amount of student loan per year than would be predicted by any of the repayment calculators due to one month as an outlying figure. This may then have a dramatic effect in the long term (if I managed to get a job paying bonus schemes as I mentioned earlier) and I would then greatly consider whether I am best to pay off lump sums of my loan to avoid paying more than I need to due to extortionate interest rates.

    I know that Martin has been championing the fight against retrospective changes to student loan payments etc so felt that this was the best platform to get some advice/info.
    • King_Nothing
    • By King_Nothing 8th Sep 16, 12:11 AM
    • 796 Posts
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    King_Nothing
    I don't even have kids yet, but even I don't understand how this system has came to exist in the way it currently does. Why does the earnings of two (or one) independant adult(s), have any bearing on what another independant adult wants to borrow for university education and associated costs?

    Imagine if it was applied to all borrowing avenues through your adult life and not just university. I've just applied for a mortgage, not once was I asked what my parents earn, and if they earned more than X I could only have 60% of what I require, and the rest would have to be stumped up by them. It's madness.

    Just because I earn X a year, doesn't mean I have 2.5k free lying around every year to stump up to subsidise adult children's further education choices, twofold if I'd had two children attending university simultaneously.
    • suzieQueue
    • By suzieQueue 8th Sep 16, 12:49 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    suzieQueue
    Is there no allowance made for Twins?

    'Natures gift' and both applying to uni for next year.

    Not planned for but somehow we'll manage.
    • XRAT
    • By XRAT 9th Sep 16, 8:27 PM
    • 203 Posts
    • 175 Thanks
    XRAT
    Household Income
    My children finished University in 2014 & '15. I was able to help them, by helping myself. The returns were impressive!
    Student loan/grants are based upon household income. Household income is joint income after deduction of pension contributions...
    Can you afford to pay more to your pension, thus reducing your household income and benefit your student with higher grants or loans?
    It is currently possible to pay 40,000/year each, from earned income into a pension, with associated tax benefits. (So a child from a 105,000 household income family can still receive maximum grant/loan.)
    The 'household income' assessment at the time mine were studying was based on income from the tax year 2 years prior to starting Uni (i.e. the year the student starts A levels.) So if you have time, plan ahead.
    It may be that you would only be able to sustain higher pension contributions for one financial year (If you have the standard 2 children, 2 years apart maximise the advantage, do it for the year that they are both at Uni.)
    Last edited by XRAT; 09-09-2016 at 8:46 PM. Reason: clarification
    • johnyb
    • By johnyb 10th Sep 16, 7:05 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    johnyb
    NHS funded courses
    Don't know if its still true but daughter did an nhs course a couple of years ago and although she was supporting herself the full loan given was over 1000 less less than she would have got had she been on an ordinary course. This is of course excluding the 3000 or so for the fees which are met by the NHS
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 23rd Sep 16, 1:46 PM
    • 39,286 Posts
    • 163,174 Thanks
    silvercar
    I don't even have kids yet, but even I don't understand how this system has came to exist in the way it currently does. Why does the earnings of two (or one) independant adult(s), have any bearing on what another independant adult wants to borrow for university education and associated costs?

    Imagine if it was applied to all borrowing avenues through your adult life and not just university. I've just applied for a mortgage, not once was I asked what my parents earn, and if they earned more than X I could only have 60% of what I require, and the rest would have to be stumped up by them. It's madness.

    Just because I earn X a year, doesn't mean I have 2.5k free lying around every year to stump up to subsidise adult children's further education choices, twofold if I'd had two children attending university simultaneously.
    Originally posted by King_Nothing
    This is the point, the government now consider that students are not financially independent and therefore parent(s) are expected to contribute. As you don't yet have kids, you can consider this 18 years notice of current expectations.

    Basically children gain some independence at 16, more at 18 but do not as students reach levels of full financial independence until 25.
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