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  • FIRST POST
    jamesd
    Drawdown: safe withdrawal rates
    • #1
    • 20th May 16, 8:39 AM
    Drawdown: safe withdrawal rates 20th May 16 at 8:39 AM
    This is a collection of posts that I think are useful for those planning drawdown, suggesting a base plan and references to help you to adjust as you wish.

    To get started you should:

    1. Use Guyton and Klinger's decision rules
    2. Use Guyton's sequence of return risk taming (adds about 1% of pot size to withdrawal rate)
    3. Keep one year of planned investment income in cash, counting that as part of your bond percentage
    4. Use state pension deferral to protect against the long life risk (see the income effect on cFiresim and the like)
    5. Continue to make pension contributions until you reach age 75.
    6. Reduce income by 0.5% of pot size to allow for costs of 1.5%, or some more appropriate amount given a reduction of about 30% of costs.
    7. Reduce income by 0-1% of pot size depending on how far you are from having all US investments.
    8. Use cFiresim and change its investment returns to do the cost/investment returns adjustments instead of using fixed reductions in income. Since UK safe withdrawal rate is about 0.3% below US, you might use cfiresim with fees increased by 1% 0.5% and skip 6 and 7, this has the advantage of just affecting the investments, not state or defined benefit pensions. 1% higher fees roughly produce a 0.3% reduction in SWR.

    Those are assuming that you have a reasonably large pot of money available and are using it to fund a high percentage of your living costs. State pension deferral assumes reasonably normal health and life expectancy around state pension age.

    Retirement is long, don't worry about it taking a while to work though things as you get started.

    Investment highlight: December 2018 August April 2017: You should have lower than usual equity investments at the moment because cyclically adjusted price/earnings ratios (PE10) are above average in some major markets, particularly the US. You might also favour lower PE10 markets with higher than their usual equity weights. I like P2P lending rather than corporate or government bonds for this. See Guyton's sequence of return risk reduction and Bengen's interesting timing thought in the last paragraph of his 2016 small cap paper. But remember that while this has good predictive value for ten year investment returns it has none for one year so it can't tell you specifically when to change, just when conditions are less favourable for equities.
    Last edited by jamesd; 04-05-2019 at 2:02 PM.
Page 1
  • jamesd
    • #2
    • 20th May 16, 8:40 AM
    Philosophy
    • #2
    • 20th May 16, 8:40 AM
    This is for things about the philosophy of the subject, notably the different approaches that people prefer. Traditionally the division is between safety-first and probability-based approaches. A person with a strong safety first inclination might choose to take a lower likely income from using cash or buying annuities while a probability oriented person would prefer the higher income generally available that way unless the worst cases happen. Whichever approach is used some certain income is useful, in the UK that's usually most cheaply bought around normal retirement ages by deferring the state pension. Don't disregard guaranteed income even if you're happy to be invested, a suitable amount increases the safe withdrawal rate.

    The Yin and Yang of retirement income philosophies and the more extensive PDF version. Discusses the key differences in philosophy.
    Even Safety-First Retirement Income Strategies Are Probability-Based - The Real Distinction Is Risk Transfer Vs Risk Retention

    Non-essential interesting material
    Last edited by jamesd; 24-07-2016 at 7:30 PM.
  • jamesd
    • #3
    • 20th May 16, 8:40 AM
    Sequence of returns risk
    • #3
    • 20th May 16, 8:40 AM
    Sequence of returns risk is the risk of failure due to the ups and downs of investments and planning for this typically requires an initial income below the one that could be obtained if the performance was the same each year. Looks as though Guyton's approach can significantly reduce the risk from this. See:

    Jonathan Guyton Tames a Gorilla (archived, original)
    Sequence-of-Return Risk: Gorilla or Boogeyman? (archive)

    Those explain how Guyton found that using the cyclically adjusted price/earnings ratio was effective in greatly reducing the impact of sequence of returns issues. Here's a source for PE10 for the US S&P500 (also here) with past charts and for other markets.

    "Though exhaustive study on the combined impact of dynamic withdrawal and allocation policies has yet to be undertaken, results of their stand-alone impact offer strong reason to believe that employing them together would add around 100 basis points to the sustainable withdrawal rate under static policies"

    That's 1% higher sustained withdrawal rate, from 4.5% to 5.5% for anyone still using the "4%" rule.

    The Gupta et al rule Guyton uses for his action threshold says:

    "P-E10: if the S&P's normalized P/E ratio is less (greater) than its historical mean plus (minus) one-half its standard deviation, the stock allocation in the rebalanced portfolio is decreased (increased) to 25 percent below (above) the baseline allocation"

    Guyton kept the one standard deviation threshold but modified the shift:

    "Because of my sense that most financial planners (including myself) may be uncomfortable communicating so large a one-time equity allocation change to their clients, in modeling the dynamic allocation policy I use a 65 percent neutral equity allocation with just under a 25 percent shift to 50 percent (80 percent) when an over- (under-) valuation occurs"

    There's a common belief that because it's hard to know what will happen in the short term (a top decile PE10 correlates with a 25% chance of a big drop over the following year) you can't usefully predict and change over longer terms. That's not true:

    The bad side of sequence of return risk gets lots of attention but also see The Extraordinary Upside Potential Of Sequence Of Return Risk In Retirement: "taking a 4% initial withdrawal rate has an equal (10%) likelihood of leaving all the retiree’s principal left over at the end of retirement… or leaving 6X the starting account balance remaining instead".
    Last edited by jamesd; 11-05-2019 at 8:39 PM. Reason: More on uses of PE10
  • jamesd
    • #4
    • 20th May 16, 8:41 AM
    Drawdown rules
    • #4
    • 20th May 16, 8:41 AM
    Various drawdown rules that people can use, personally I like a modified Guyton and Klinger approach. Bengen's original 4% rule is no longer very good even though it was revolutionary at the time, later ones can do a better job.
    If using US data and UK investments, subtract 0.3 from the safe withdrawal rate percentage, roughly the expected difference between US and UK SWRs; more detail on UK SWRs here, which mentions a UK SWR of 5.5% using Guyton-Klinger over 40 years with 65% equities; both also discuss Guyton-Klinger. The UK worst case is a 1936 start.

    Improving the rules
    Last edited by jamesd; 12-05-2019 at 2:18 AM.
  • jamesd
    • #5
    • 20th May 16, 8:42 AM
    Tools
    • #5
    • 20th May 16, 8:42 AM
    Tools to help with the planning, cFiresim is the one I prefer, Firecalc is an older popular one with less options, notably without the Guyton-Klinger method.

    When using US tools with US investments set the costs figure to your total costs, then add 1%. The effect of costs is about a third of costs reduction in safe withdrawal rate and the UK 4% rule 30 year SWR is 0.3 lower than the US. So 1% higher costs roughly covers the investment difference.

    Early retirement @ 55 what to do with £ 380000 Example of cFiresim drawdown using Guyton-Klinger rules with state pension and property downsizing
    Thoughts on my plan please retiring 59, £9500 defined benefit pension, 8k assumed state pension, £275000 investments, desired income £2000 a month, £2250 looks possible.
    Final Salary Pension (transfer). Pot £350k at 55 plus £8k state pension. £27k income with 90% success rate and £12k floor looks doable. Illustrates effect of success rate and income floor settings.


    Pension calculation help to get me to 25k pa Example of a Firecalc calculation, also read the other posts, they cover many things that are likely to be interesting, including the range of UK incomes in retirement that may help with target setting.

    Blanchett has some suggestions for what success rate to use, scroll down to the end. To get state pension's capital value to use it as a percentage, you could work out the cost to buy an annuity delivering the same income level. As illustrated here a minimum income need of 50% of income, guaranteed income equivalent to 50% of wealth and medium income stability objective would suggest a 47% success rate target.
    Last edited by jamesd; 24-04-2019 at 1:54 PM.
  • jamesd
    • #6
    • 20th May 16, 8:42 AM
    Worked examples
    • #6
    • 20th May 16, 8:42 AM
    How much do I need to pay in each month to get to a particular income level at a target age?

    These are some very rough numbers for those far from the planned ages, anyone within ten years needs to use more fancy methods.

    Split the desired amount into two time periods, first from after state pension age, then for the time before state pension age. I'll use age 40 now, age 55 target and 18k income target as an example.

    1. From state pension age of say 68 part, deduct your expected state pension amount, say 8,000 if you don't know it, from your target annual income. Multiply the remaining target by 25 to get the 4% rule estimated pension pot size requirement, £10,000 * 25 = £250,000. To start enter 100 monthly gross, 28 years duration (68-40 years old), 4.5% interest rate (long term UK stock market performance less about 0.5% for costs). That'll say that each £100 a month gets you £67,123 pension pot. Adjust the monthly amount to get to the 250k needed and you'll find it's £373 gross a month. [NOTE: this 28 year duration assumes that you'll be paying in £373 gross a month even after you have retired at 55! So you'd need to budget for that in your income plan and I haven't done that in step 2 in this example]

    2. For the part before the state pension you'll need to cover the whole income target yourself. But it doesn't have to last for life so you can draw more. As a very rough way to allow for this multiply the income required by the number of years between retirement age and state pension age. So £18,000 target x (68-55) = £234,000. Back to the regular savings calculator, duration 15 years (age 55 - age 40), interest rate 4.5% and adjust the monthly payment until you get to the £234,000 required. Answer is £913. Notice how much higher it is than the after state pension number with more growth time available.

    Now add the two numbers and you have your monthly gross pension contribution target of £373 + £913 = £1,286 a month.

    Too much? Check the effect of a five year delay to age 60. Target £18,000 x (68-60) = £144,000. Now duration of 20 years (age 60 - age 40) and the regular savings calculator says £371 a month before state pension age and a total amount of £373 + £371 = £744 a month. Much easier.

    What if you're on minimum wage? £14,976 a year for 52 40 hour weeks in 2016. If you need 80% of this in retirement that's a target of £11,980.80 a year. £8,000 comes from the state pension leaving you £3980.80 a year to fund. At assumed age 68 state pension age and starting from age 30 you'll need a pension pot of £99,520 which would take gross £82.75 a month. Using 2018 auto-enrolment rates a total of 8% of qualifying pay is required, 3% from employer, 1% from tax relief and 4% from you. That would potentially halve your net cost to £41.38 a month. In 2016/17 the lower level of qualifying earnings is £5,824 a year so if you are on £14,976 your employer would have to pay in only on £14,976 - £5,824 = £9,152. 8% of £9,152 is £61.01 gross a month, vs your higher £82.75 a month target so your employer isn't required to pay in for the full amount. They can choose to use your whole £14,976 pay and if they did that the 8% would be above your target at £99.84 a month. If you used only the £61.01 gross then your anticipated pension pot size would be £73,395 and that could produce an income of £2,935 a year, taking your total including state pension to £10,935.80 which is 73% of your gross pay. But your take home pay on £14,976 would be £13,350.88 and it's 82% of that if it's all free of income tax, which it probably will be. Not at all bad since you'll have no work-related costs when retired.
    Last edited by jamesd; 07-08-2016 at 3:34 AM.
  • jamesd
    • #7
    • 20th May 16, 8:43 AM
    State pension
    • #7
    • 20th May 16, 8:43 AM
    Life expectancy

    The ONS 2014 Principal projection based How long will my pension need to last? tool gives these values:

    Male, to age 86, 21 years, 1 in 4 chance of 95, 1 in 10 chance of 99
    Female, to age 89, 24 years, 1 in 4 chance of 96, 1 in 10 chance of 100

    A NEST document using 2010 data shows that when male life expectancy was 87.8 at age 65 the most likely age at death was 91. From age 85 with life expectancy 92.1 the most likely age at death is 85 but with a gentle slope for the next 5 years so those years are only a little less likely than 85; 26% who reached 85 would reach 95 and 7% 100. Page 40.

    Unless you have reason to expect a shorter than usual life expectancy I suggest planning to at least the 1 in 4 age. That would be roughly the traditionally used 30 years from age 65 while 1 in 10 would be 35/36 years.

    hugheskevi put this chance of dying in the next year for men list together, based on the ONS 2016-based cohort life expectancies but note that it is on average and your health and lifestyle could give you a much lower or higher risk and the risk for women is lower (2005 data comparing men and women) (more on risks):

    50=0.3%
    55=0.4%
    60=0.7%
    65=1.1%
    70=1.7%
    75=2.9%
    80=5.0%
    85=9.0%
    90=15.9%
    95=26.0%
    Last edited by jamesd; 21-04-2019 at 2:25 AM.
  • jamesd
    • #8
    • 20th May 16, 8:43 AM
    Investment strategies
    • #8
    • 20th May 16, 8:43 AM
    Various investment strategies and methods.
  • jamesd
    • #9
    • 20th May 16, 8:44 AM
    • #9
    • 20th May 16, 8:44 AM
    Tax

    After the tax free lump sum pension income is taxable. There are various ways you can reduce that cost:
    • Deferring your state pension reduces your taxable income by the state pension you're not taking. Great time to take taxable money out of pensions.
    • Moving money into ISAs produces long term income tax free income.
    • VCTs let you increase the amount you can take out of a pension with no net tax cost and can also generate useful tax exempt ongoing dividend income. You're probably well placed to defer income for five years - the VCT holding time to avoid having to repay the 30% tax relief - so exploit your new long horizon to make your income effectively tax free by moving more into ISAs with the help of the VCTs.

    To reclaim overpaid pension tax you can use one of these forms:
    • Flexible access. Which is UFPLS or taking money from a drawdown pot you've already taken the tax free lump sum for. Not for taking a tax free lump sum (no need to tell HMRC) or using the small pot rule (see below):
      • P55 when you've flexibly accessed part of your pension pot and aren't taking ongoing income from the pot
      • P50Z if you've emptied your pension pot and are neither working nor receiving taxable benefits (the state pension and carer's allowance are taxable benefits)
    • P53 or P53Z if you've emptied your pot using the small pot rule or trivial commutation. The print, fill in and post P53 version has a box where you can say which tax year it's for. "If you’ve only used part of your pension pot, or if you’re not working or receiving benefits, you’ll need to use form P55 or form P50Z"
    Last edited by jamesd; 30-04-2019 at 9:50 PM.
  • jamesd
    Pension contributions

    Continue to make pension contributions from age 55 until reaching age 75 unless lifetime allowance or something else makes it a bad idea. There is free money to be had.

    At basic rate income tax with all personal allowance used: Pay in £2,880, take out 25% tax free, £900, take out £2,700 taxed at 20% net, £2,160. Net gain £900 + £2,160 - £2,880 = £180

    With at least £2,700 of personal allowance still unused: Pay in £2,880, take out 25% tax free, £900, take out £2,700 nil tax due, £2,700, £2,700. Net gain £900 + £2,700 - £2,880 = £720

    If you flexibly (UFPLS or drawdown) take out anything beyond the 25% tax free lump sum from a personal pension you will have the amount you and anyone else can pay into defined contribution pensions in your name reduced to £4,000 a year by the Money Purchase Annual Allowance (MPAA). Usually this won't matter but it may if you're continuing to work. It doesn't affect contributions to defined benefit pensions like final or average salary.

    You can take all of the money out of up to three personal pension pots per lifetime each worth no more than £10,000 using the small pots rule without triggering the MPAA reduction. This is described at PTM063700 and can be either money you've taken a tax free PCLS from already (so all taxable) or uncrystallised (25% tax free).

    Taking taxable money from the state pension or a defined benefit pension (like final or average salary) doesn't trigger the MPAA 4k restriction. It isn't triggered if you have one of the older pre-April 2015 capped drawdown products and only draw up to the GAD limit.

    The limit on what you can pay in and get tax relief on is your earned (technically, qualifying) income or if lower, £2,880 net, £3,600 gross.

    There's extensive discussion of this at Paying £2880 into pension when retired.

    State pension deferral

    Defer your state pension if you have normal life expectancy and no special case for not doing it. Up to five years has a good chance of breaking even, up to ten years can be good for longevity insurance (more here) and to increase the safe withdrawal amount from drawdown, by providing more of your minimum income requirement, see for example Blanchett's paper The Impact of Guaranteed Income and Dynamic Withdrawals on Safe Initial Withdrawal Rates.

    A person who reached state pension age after 6 April 2016 gets an increase of 5.8% per year of deferral, pro-rated for parts of years, not inheritable, no lump sum option. Before then the increase is 10.4%, mostly inheritable by a spouse and with the option of taking a lump sum that is taxed at your current highest income tax rate, which could be zero if within your personal allowance. For deferral before 6 April 2005 the increase was 7.5% with no lump sum increase and a cap of five years.

    For how long to defer see Does it pay to delay your state pension? and use the calculator at https://www.johnkay.com/pension/ that is unusual because it takes the alternative investments into account. Use the end of your planning horizon or longer as your remaining life expectancy when using the calculator for drawdown planning.

    I get these break even numbers of years to defer using normal life expectancy:

    If invested to get 3% plus inflation (shares, corporate bonds)
    Male aged 72, 15 years to go, defer 1 year 5 months
    Female aged 67, 22 years to go, defer 4 years 2 months

    If using savings accounts to get 0% plus inflation
    Male aged 72, 15 years to go, defer 2 years 8 months
    Female aged 67, 22 years to go, defer 6 years 2 months

    I get these break even numbers of years to defer using the life expectancy that one person in four will reach:

    If invested to get 3% plus inflation (shares, corporate bonds)
    Male aged 72, 21 years to go, defer 3 years 9 months
    Female aged 67, 29 years to go, defer 6 years 7 months

    If using savings accounts to get 0% plus inflation
    Male aged 72, 21 years to go, defer 5 years 8 months
    Female aged 67, 29 years to go, defer 9 years 8 months

    For more background see:
    Deferring a state pension - is it worthwhile? (Caution, this does not use cohort life expectancies and doesn't compare to other uses of the money. Use the two or five year above average results to try to compensate).

    What is state pension deferral?, handy for abroad tip. SPA effects if abroad (7.20 on):
    • before 6 April 2016: get deferral increases anywhere, can't start while abroad after having claimed
    • from 6 April 2016: don't get deferral increases without a reciprocal arrangement (80% affected are in Canada, NZ, Australia), can start while abroad

    State pension inheritance rules.

    Class 3A state pension top-up: archived, ended 6 April 2017.


    The limits on recycling pension commencement lump sums, the usual tax free lump sums

    If worried about lump sum recycling remember the threshold of £7,500 that has to be exceeded within a 12 month period and that as of 2015 HMRC is believed never yet to have invoked the rule for an individual because it is intended to block organised schemes (also see this post) and it is not a focus of their efforts. For much more discussion see Can husband give his 25% tax free sum to me to reinvest in my pension pot?.

    If any of these are true it is definitely fine:

    1. The total amount of all tax free lump sums taken in a twelve month rolling period (not tax or calendar year) is no higher than £7,500.
    2. You didn't plan to recycle when you took the tax free lump sum. HMRC has to prove that you did, not you prove that you didn't. This would catch out people using organised schemes.
    3. The timing of the lump sum(s) coincided with routine things like retiring or reaching the normal retirement age of a defined benefit pension.

    If none of those apply, add up the total amount of pension contributions you make in the year of taking each lump sum, the two tax years before that and the two tax years after that. Divide by five and compare to your typical amount of pension contributions.

    A. If the average is not more than 30% above what it was before it's fine: "a significant increase does not occur unless, because of a pension commencement lump sum, the amount of the additional contributions are more than 30% of the contributions that might otherwise have been expected".
    B. Subtract the average of those five years from the previous average and multiply by five. If this is less than 30% of the value of the lump sums it's fine.

    HMRC might disagree about working out the value of the increase. Also many increases are fine, like increases due to inheritance, pay rises, following changes in income tax thresholds and many other things including normal retirement planning. You can subtract the increases from those things when working out the increase in the calculations. You might also be taking the tax free lump sum as soon as you can just to get it in case of a change of rules later, as a result of the constant talk that the tax free lump sum possibility might go away - that's my own intention - then you have to do something with the money.

    The limits apply to pension contributions in your own name. You can take a tax free lump sum into a bank account in your own name and give it to a spouse or anyone else and they can make pension contributions in their own name from their own bank account or via a work scheme without anything other than the usual contribution limits. Though if it's clear that you are arranging mutual gifts that could be taken to break the rules as a sham arrangement.
    Last edited by jamesd; 25-09-2019 at 1:08 AM.
  • jamesd
    Reserved for future use 3.
  • jamesd
    Reserved for future use 4.
  • jamesd
    Reserved for future use 5.
  • jamesd
    Reserved for future use 6. Probably not enough since I already have many potential candidates but it's start and I'll stop at 6.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Jun 16, 8:45 AM
    • 15,944 Posts
    • 19,158 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Originally posted by jamesd
    maybe I'm an outlier but I dont think I am, in my circumstances that makes no sense to me unless its including items like mortgages, helping kids at university and so on, which the plan should be, to have cleared by retirement. Well that was my plan and it worked anyway

    If i think about spending from the POV of say the five years before retirement to the 5 years after (and probably up to ten), spending ought to increase as you have more time and opportunity to spend money. Its only as odds of being ill/infirm increase that you might then spend less.

    When I retire next year I could take cruises, fly and stay in hotels every night of the next year, I couldn't do that this year since my boss might notice my absence.
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 8th Jun 16, 2:14 PM
    • 12,480 Posts
    • 8,855 Thanks
    kidmugsy
    When I retire next year I could take cruises, fly and stay in hotels every night of the next year, I couldn't do that this year since my boss might notice my absence.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    One notion you'll see discussed is that lots of spending while you're working is a superficial "cheer me up" exercise to compensate for being fed up at work. Once you are retired you'll be an altogether happier bunny, and learn that the best things in life are free, thus finding no need to be extravagant.


    Like most pop psychology it's probably roughly true for some people and quite untrue for others.
    • greenglide
    • By greenglide 8th Jun 16, 2:55 PM
    • 3,284 Posts
    • 2,145 Thanks
    greenglide
    ... and there are people on this forum who expect to spend less in retirement than before because of savings through not buying frothy coffee at work, not buying lunches at work, not spending on "work clothes", saving on commute etc.

    Doesnt work if you dont buy frothy coffee, wear "relaxed" clothes for work, bring sandwiches from home, live reasonably close to work etc (as I do).
    • green_man
    • By green_man 8th Jun 16, 7:27 PM
    • 268 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    green_man
    Great work James and many thanx, I will work through this gradually.

    I have recently retired at 50 and my required withdrawal rate (ignoring state pension) is just under 3%. Though at the moment I have about 30% in cash, I should be fine based on any of the methods I have read about, I am currently trying to establish a high income ISA portfolio to supplement my pension drawdown which I will start in 5 years.
  • jamesd
    Do be sure to use your income tax personal allowance and also consider some use of VCTs, perhaps to eliminate income tax on your whole basic rate income, allowing faster move from pension to ISA. Not sure why you'd delay drawing on taxable pension money unless you know you can never have an income tax bill for it.

    While nothing is certain, betting on higher taxes and getting protection from them does seem like sensible planning.
    Last edited by jamesd; 10-06-2016 at 12:42 AM.
    • N1AK
    • By N1AK 9th Jun 16, 11:54 AM
    • 2,852 Posts
    • 3,798 Thanks
    N1AK
    maybe I'm an outlier but I dont think I am, in my circumstances that makes no sense to me unless its including items like mortgages, helping kids at university and so on, which the plan should be, to have cleared by retirement. Well that was my plan and it worked anyway
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    I think part of the disconnect might be the comparison of yourself as an individual to a massive diverse population of data. The most obvious difference to me is that people who are saving effectively for retirement are likely to be controlling spending more than people who aren't; they are also likely to have the resources to increase spending in retirement when those who didn't save as much need to cut it back.
    Having a signature removed for mentioning the removal of a previous signature. Blackwhite bellyfeel double plus good...
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