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  • FIRST POST
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 20th Mar 13, 1:07 PM
    • 4,729Posts
    • 2,094Thanks
    Vauban
    Taking The Airlines To Court
    • #1
    • 20th Mar 13, 1:07 PM
    Taking The Airlines To Court 20th Mar 13 at 1:07 PM
    I thought it might be useful to start a thread specifically with advice on how to manage the process of taking an airline to Court, and perhaps sharing airlines defences and such like.

    I have found MCOL so far quite easy to use, and hope people aren't put off from claiming what is their's.

    For those thinking about taking the airline to the small claims court, I found this link very helpful:

    https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview


    For those who want to use the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP) - which is necessary for Ryannair and a few others based outside the UK - Dr. Watson has produced an excellent guide here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=64457359&postcount=622

    And for those interested in how legal action played out for me in reality, you can read my account - and see the documents I relied upon - here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=64739956&postcount=426

    AND

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=64739956&postcount=427
    Last edited by Vauban; 11-03-2014 at 7:42 AM.
Page 13
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 28th Jan 14, 4:53 PM
    • 4,729 Posts
    • 2,094 Thanks
    Vauban
    sorry what does NBA stand for? thanks
    Originally posted by carina62
    It is Notice Before Action. But if you are serious about taking the airline to court, you might want to do a bit more reading first.
    • 111KAB
    • By 111KAB 28th Jan 14, 4:55 PM
    • 3,640 Posts
    • 1,479 Thanks
    111KAB
    It is Notice Before Action. But if you are serious about taking the airline to court, you might want to do a bit more reading first.
    Originally posted by Vauban
    Try Page one on the thread appropriate to your airline .... http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4384699
    • carina62
    • By carina62 28th Jan 14, 5:02 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    carina62
    I am now at the stage whereby i will have no choice but to take Thomson to court as although the CAA have been involved, they seem to be taking a very long time with responses etc and i have to get this sorted before Sept this year as my claim dates back to Sept 2008. So do i just write a letter to Thomson about court action? thanks
    • 111KAB
    • By 111KAB 28th Jan 14, 5:14 PM
    • 3,640 Posts
    • 1,479 Thanks
    111KAB
    So do i just write a letter to Thomson about court action? thanks
    Originally posted by carina62

    You can but this is not the procedure suggested - firstly you should read Thomson thread (this will answer your questions) then post on that thread if you have any more questions - I have already provided the link.
  • stevemej123
    Having originally complained to Jet2 more than a year ago then involved the CAA (what a complete waste of time - SHAME ON YOU CAA friend of the airlines). We finally received a letter from Jet2 confirming their original decision we will now go to court.
    I have read all 13 pages of this posting about taking airlines to court but am a bit confused about the significance of claiming for a party of 6 friends (not family). The trouble is that the claim from the start was for the whole party as we were the ones who arranged the trip and made the booking.

    If you cant use mcol for a group the could somebody please point me towards the posting covering this issue.

    regards
    • JPears
    • By JPears 28th Jan 14, 10:21 PM
    • 4,507 Posts
    • 1,232 Thanks
    JPears
    Paper form N1 and post or hand in to your local court. Allows multiple claimants I believe.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 28th Jan 14, 10:29 PM
    • 4,729 Posts
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    Vauban
    Paper form N1 and post or hand in to your local court. Allows multiple claimants I believe.
    Originally posted by JPears
    The first link on the first post on the first page of this thread takes you to the N1 form.
    • socrates1882
    • By socrates1882 31st Jan 14, 12:22 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    socrates1882
    Just a bit of advice from pleadings that I have seen. On occasion we are approached by people who have commenced proceedings themselves who then want us to take over at defence stage.

    Make sure you plead your case properly - correctly identify the defendant and give them their proper title. The amount of times we see things like TUI UK or Thomas Cook is baffling - if you don't correctly identify the defendant, even if you are succesful then your judgment is likely unenforceable.

    It really is worth taking the time to get stuff like this right.
    Last edited by socrates1882; 31-01-2014 at 12:23 PM. Reason: spelling error
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 31st Jan 14, 1:50 PM
    • 1,016 Posts
    • 428 Thanks
    legal magpie
    The point about identity of Defendant is true but rarely fatal as most of the airlines will point out that the Defendant should be (e.g. Thomson Airways and not Thomson holidays) The Judge will invariably either substitute the correct Defendant without reservice or even substitute at the hearing. The point is that there is no prejudice to the Defendant.
  • Poundzhound

    It really is worth taking the time to get stuff like this right.
    Originally posted by socrates1882
    Yes it is.
  • Limana68
    HI guys

    Originally posted this in the KLM thread but thought I would also post in here!
    Well I have had a defence from KLM solicitors
    Heres a piece of their 4 page letter

    " The flight was delayed because of technical problems with the airport suppliers fuelling system and the air traffic control issues which amounted to extraordinary circumstances."
    As a result of the delay caused by the fuel supplier ( 9 minutes) air traffic control in Kuala Lumpur(3 minutes) and air traffic control in Amsterdam(13 minutes) flight KLM812 arrived 25 minutes late into Amsterdam at 1600.The late arrival caused the claimant to miss the connecting flight.
    En route to Amsterdam airport head winds and air traffic control corridors congestion and resulted in an additional delay of 13 minutes before the sircraft was allowed to land.
    An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with article 7 if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. ""

    I have now at a loss as to what to do. Any initial thoughts before I trawl through all the regulations etc.Have I got any hope of winning this case or not

    What is interesting though is when I first got a reply back from them they stated it was a technical issue with the aircraft............ now they seem to be back tracking saying it was lack of fuel supplier etc etc!!

    ""Thank you again for your message received in our offices on 9 April 2013 in relation to the incident occurred with flight KL812 on 3 January 2013 from Kuala Lumpur to Amsterdam and please, accept our apologies for our late reply.
    As we mentioned in our previous reply, the above flight was delayed due to an unexpected technical fault on the aircraft. We did all we could to offer you the best possible care and assistance.
    Having reviewed your file and again taken into consideration all the relevant information about this particular flight, we can confirm that the cause of the delay is considered as ''extraordinary" according to the European Union Regulation. Therefore, we regret to inform you that you are not entitled to the compensation established the EU261/2004 Regulation. ""

    Will the judge take kindly to this???
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 1st Feb 14, 10:13 AM
    • 4,729 Posts
    • 2,094 Thanks
    Vauban
    It damages their credibility, and the judge will expect to see them evidence their assertions I imagine. But it won't change the fundamentals of the claim.
  • MoneyGeek
    Acting on Behalf of Claimant
    My niece and her boyfriend incurred a flight delay six months ago on a longhaul flight. She has exchanged several letters with Thomson - all of which I have written for her, but in her name.

    Thomson are quoting exceptional circumstances and I (she) has submitted the NBA letter which has not been replied to as yet (two months ago).

    I am about to submit to small claims using the N1 form (as there are two claimants), but I have some questions about the process which others will know.

    My niece is only 18 and the thought of court petrifies her - I would like to attend the court with her and I would also like to raise the court claim on her behalf as well.

    Can I represent my niece in court, presenting the case and do all the talking? My niece (and boyfriend) would have no problem coming along to court - but won't want to say anything.

    How do I file the N1 form? Can I submit on behalf of them or do I write it for them as if they were writing it?

    If the claim is in their own names (and doesn't mention me) does that preclude me from representing them in any court hearing?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
    • David_e
    • By David_e 10th Feb 14, 9:01 PM
    • 1,490 Posts
    • 325 Thanks
    David_e
    Thomson are quoting exceptional circumstances and I (she) has submitted the NBA letter which has not been replied to as yet (two months ago).
    Originally posted by MoneyGeek
    I thin HHJ Platts mistakenly uses "exceptional" a couple of times in his ruling but it should be "exraordinary".

    Can I represent my niece in court, presenting the case and do all the talking? My niece (and boyfriend) would have no problem coming along to court - but won't want to say anything.
    Originally posted by MoneyGeek
    Google is your friend: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court

    How do I file the N1 form? Can I submit on behalf of them or do I write it for them as if they were writing it?
    Originally posted by MoneyGeek
    I assume there isn't an "on behalf of" option on the form. (A minor claims in their own name but via a "litigation friend".)
  • MoneyGeek
    I assume there isn't an "on behalf of" option on the form. (A minor claims in their own name but via a "litigation friend".)
    Originally posted by David_e
    So to be clear on the style of language used on the claim should the particulars say:

    1. "We were delayed..." and I sign as litigation friend.
    2. "The claimants were delayed..." and I sign as a litigation friend.
    3. "We were delayed..." and my niece signs but I turn up on the day in court to act as a litigation friend unannounced.

    • David_e
    • By David_e 11th Feb 14, 3:07 PM
    • 1,490 Posts
    • 325 Thanks
    David_e
    So to be clear on the style of language used on the claim should the particulars say:

    1. "We were delayed..." and I sign as litigation friend.
    2. "The claimants were delayed..." and I sign as a litigation friend.
    3. "We were delayed..." and my niece signs but I turn up on the day in court to act as a litigation friend unannounced.

    Originally posted by MoneyGeek
    You said your niece is 18 so she isn't a legal minor. It's her claim so in her name but, as noted, it appears you can speak for her in court. Paperwork can be prepared by anyone but she'll neeed to sign it. Might be useful to have something in writing between you setting out your role. You don't want it turning into family feud if something goes wrong. I'm assuming that (like me) you are not legally qualified.
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 11th Feb 14, 4:03 PM
    • 1,016 Posts
    • 428 Thanks
    legal magpie
    This isn't entirely correct. Is your niece's boyfriend also making a claim? If so, and assuming that he is also over 18, the Claim should be prepared in their names either referring to them separately as (e.g.) Trevor Howard (first Claimant) and Celia Johnson (second claimant) or (better in my view) "Trevor Howard and Celia Johnson (Claimants). If you use the second option you simply double the claim and set it out as follows:

    Compensation pursuant to EU Regulation EC261/2004 namely (e.g) XX Euros amounting to sterling as at (the date of the claim).

    Although you can, of course, help them, you don't come into the picture at all. Your name shouldn't appear on the Court papers (unless you are a solicitor). You can attend any court hearings as a lay representative so long as your niece and boyfriend are also there.
    Hope this helps
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 11th Feb 14, 9:46 PM
    • 2,179 Posts
    • 767 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    Can I represent my niece in court, presenting the case and do all the talking? My niece (and boyfriend) would have no problem coming along to court - but won't want to say anything.
    Originally posted by MoneyGeek
    No, not unless you are legally qualified, and have earned the 'right of audience'.

    In some cases, known as FDR (Financial Dispute Resolution) - which are 'without prejudice' hearings - a judge may allow a mackensie friend to speak on behalf of the party he/she is helping. But that's about it.
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 11th Feb 14, 11:13 PM
    • 1,016 Posts
    • 428 Thanks
    legal magpie
    Sorry but the above isn't quite right. In small claims hearings you can appoint a lay representative who can speak for you. We aren't talking rights of audience here.
    • batman44
    • By batman44 12th Feb 14, 8:45 AM
    • 545 Posts
    • 159 Thanks
    batman44
    Just a bit of advice from pleadings that I have seen. On occasion we are approached by people who have commenced proceedings themselves who then want us to take over at defence stage.

    Make sure you plead your case properly - correctly identify the defendant and give them their proper title. The amount of times we see things like TUI UK or Thomas Cook is baffling - if you don't correctly identify the defendant, even if you are succesful then your judgment is likely unenforceable.

    It really is worth taking the time to get stuff like this right.
    Originally posted by socrates1882
    I did put the wrong defendant name down on my form but the TC defence did not contest, i used the change form and paid the 45 to put the correct name without re issue. It can be very confusing as the companies involved don't make it easy as they trade under all sorts of names and contact you under various names. Thomas Cook, Airtours, Thomas Cook Group, Thomson, TUI, Thomson Group, TUI Group. I suppose when it comes down to it the can be smart about it, my own thinking is that they are all part of the same company, same pot so to speak so it should not matter.
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