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    • InsideInsurance
    • By InsideInsurance 27th Dec 13, 4:25 PM
    • 22,213 Posts
    • 11,383 Thanks
    InsideInsurance
    I pay yearly, I dont give permission for the searches but the comparison sites dont give an opt out. Experian love it as it makes them money
    Originally posted by chanz4
    As stated, some insurers use it for pricing the policy itself not just about paying in installments.

    the opt out is to not use their services and only use insurers that dont do CRA searches if you dont want them to do one.
  • Experian company representative
    Not all insurers provide credit facilities but they may still use identity checking services that consult credit report information. Where that happens you'll simply see an ID check footprint on your credit report. For checks like this the organisation wouldn't actually see your credit history data, just an ID score based on it.

    James
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of Experian. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"

    Posts by James Jones, Neil Stone, Stuart Storey & Joe Standen
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    Experian Company Representative, would you mind telling us how the vagaries of all the data you let all and sundry place on your files in our name is relevant?

    What really is the purpose of allowing companies like yours to grab so much of our personal data?

    I ask, because I have an excellent credit score which in fact is almost perfect according to CRAs and apparently the only detracting feature is that I recently took a new credit agreement. The difficulty I have in my mind about the purpose of CRAs is flavoured by the fact that the new credit agreement was fraudulently opened in my name by an impersonator.

    The date of birth given in my name for that application is on the CRA database. It is completely wrong, yet there it sits. No alert, no alarm, just a minor dent in my perfect score because it is a recent application and by the by it currently shows as overlimit.

    What good purpose do CRAs serve that helps me? Are CRAs not part of the fraud problem if the suggestion is that part of their purpose is ID checking and yet here is THE most obvious mismatch and it has gone completely unnoticed by the card issuer and the CRA?
  • Experian company representative
    Not all lenders choose to use our identity-verification and fraud-detection tools when they access and assess your credit report. We can only look at your report when you ask us to. If you send us details we'll gladly investigate for you.

    James
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of Experian. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"

    Posts by James Jones, Neil Stone, Stuart Storey & Joe Standen
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 27th Dec 13, 10:41 PM
    • 98,579 Posts
    • 67,061 Thanks
    dunstonh
    I ask, because I have an excellent credit score
    You wouldnt if companies like Experian didnt exist.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    Exactly. I don't need an excellent credit score and in any event I shouldn't have a better one than you, should I, dunstonh? I am sure you would agree that would be wholly incorrect

    The CRA that at this moment contains my incorrect date of birth on a single fraudulent credit agreement alongside a multiplicity of other credit agreements with my correct date of birth can bloody well do an unbelievably easy data clean up operation and find it (and no doubt thousands of others they've missed because they can't even conduct the absolute most basic of personal data tasks). Everywhere else in the world, a date of birth could be used as part of a "unique key" - as it is called in database techno terms - to 100% confidently identify all records pertaining to one unique individual data subject. But no. Fraudulent and incorrectly processed turnover is big business in banks so whatever the bank tells the CRA isn't questioned too closely - especially not dob and incomplete full name irrelevances, eh? CRAs accept fraudulent and incomplete records just as easily as real ones so as not to upset any partner bank turnover applecart or cause any applecart turnovers I suppose. Bad business that, showing that the hand that feeds you all this luvverly data ain't even filtering it right. Not cricket to overly criticise the ways of members in ones own club, dontcha know?

    The more I think about it the more unbelievable it is. When I develop a data input routine in a computer program, whether it be for user direct input or importing from another database, it contains filters which rejects and flags up impossible inputs and a useful error message is created which is communicated to whomever is attempting the input. I cannot believe it doesn't happen. What I can believe however is that the rejection part of the error routine has been overridden, and the error message probably languishes on a list no-one ever looks at.

    I could do Experian UKs date of birth mismatch clean up on a laptop in a morning given the access to their databases that they probably give to some of the heroes at the banks who put the rubbish into the system. Experian Company Representative will probably argue there is some obtuse reason why he can't do it this weekend and sift out mine as one of those suspected thousands of data subjects with anomolous date of birth mismatches.

    I am not going to contact Experian directly thanks, James. I'll let the bank and the Information Commissioner do it. They can have the job of asking what the bloody hell Experian are playing at by alerting no-one to the mismatch and consequently holding obviously false data against my name.
    Last edited by VictimOfImpersonation; 28-12-2013 at 4:21 AM.
  • Experian company representative
    We will happily investigate this and respond to your concerns if you get in touch with details. We do use date of birth as an identifier but we use other information too. If you raise this with the Information Commissioner's Office they are likely to ask you to try to resolve the matter with us directly first. If someone else is using your details our Victims of Fraud team can also give you advice on taking steps to shore up your identity.

    James
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of Experian. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"

    Posts by James Jones, Neil Stone, Stuart Storey & Joe Standen
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    Not good enough James.

    I have requested you, Head of Consumer Affairs at Experian, on an open internet forum to clean up your data in the simplest of fashions. I have told you exactly what to look for already.

    You are clearly content for no clean up to happen until someone makes you do it.

    Until you do clean it up, you are breaking the law.
    • Tiddlywinks
    • By Tiddlywinks 29th Dec 13, 7:11 PM
    • 5,351 Posts
    • 18,507 Thanks
    Tiddlywinks
    Not good enough James.

    I have requested you, Head of Consumer Affairs at Experian, on an open internet forum to clean up your data in the simplest of fashions. I have told you exactly what to look for already.

    You are clearly content for no clean up to happen until someone makes you do it.

    Until you do clean it up, you are breaking the law.
    Originally posted by VictimOfImpersonation

    Good grief - just fill in the blooming form and let the company rep investigate the matter.

    Stop being such a drama queen.
    • stclair
    • By stclair 29th Dec 13, 7:17 PM
    • 6,543 Posts
    • 3,472 Thanks
    stclair
    Not good enough James.

    I have requested you, Head of Consumer Affairs at Experian, on an open internet forum to clean up your data in the simplest of fashions. I have told you exactly what to look for already.

    You are clearly content for no clean up to happen until someone makes you do it.

    Until you do clean it up, you are breaking the law.
    Originally posted by VictimOfImpersonation
    Do you really think it's James Jones actually posting on mse?
    Im an ex employee RBS Group
    However Any Opinion Given On MSE Is Strictly My Own
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    Good grief - just fill in the blooming form and let the company rep investigate the matter.

    Stop being such a drama queen.
    by Tiddlewinks
    Do you really think it's James Jones actually posting on mse?
    Originally posted by stclair
    Oh glad you two found your way over here. Can you find your way back unaided or do you need some more help?

    I am sure he will discover what he's written soon enough in the morning.

    I'll be testing their database again tomorrow evening to see if he takes it seriously.
    • InsideInsurance
    • By InsideInsurance 29th Dec 13, 8:24 PM
    • 22,213 Posts
    • 11,383 Thanks
    InsideInsurance
    We seem to have gone way off the course of talking about aggregators to trying to bash Experian.

    Now I am not the greatest fan of CRAs but lets be realistic, in the UK we dont have any form of ID number and therefore there is no singular Natural Primary Key and nor is there a definitive list of all people. There isnt even a Composite Key as legitimately data changes over time and names can be abbreviated or not etc so you will end up having fuzzy logic matching to try and decide if, when new data is received, is this information for one of the existing people in the data warehouse as 90% of the information matches or is this actually a new person who just happens to have exceptionally similar information?

    Not every wrong date of birth is going to be a fraud attempt, people miss key, you yourself, a friend helping you or the member of staff. Likewise not everyone's handwriting is perfect and again things can be misread.

    CRAs do not claim to be a 100% record, other lenders/ vendors/ service providers are aware of this hence why some dont bother even using them, some only use part of the services and others use them more fully. As the Experian Rep has said, they provide "scores", they dont give black and white answers, yes/ no its the customer, yes/no lend to them, they just give a score and the service provider makes the choice.

    CRAs do not claim to police the data either, they are a store not a validator. As per the DPA, if you inform them data is wrong with evidence then they must correct it. Likewise, given your monika, if you've been the victim of identity fraud you also have CIFAS who will also note on your files both with themselves and the CRAs
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    We seem to have gone way off the course of talking about aggregators to trying to bash Experian.

    Now I am not the greatest fan of CRAs but lets be realistic, in the UK we dont have any form of ID number and therefore there is no singular Natural Primary Key and nor is there a definitive list of all people. There isnt even a Composite Key as legitimately data changes over time and names can be abbreviated or not etc so you will end up having fuzzy logic matching to try and decide if, when new data is received, is this information for one of the existing people in the data warehouse as 90% of the information matches or is this actually a new person who just happens to have exceptionally similar information?

    Not every wrong date of birth is going to be a fraud attempt, people miss key, you yourself, a friend helping you or the member of staff. Likewise not everyone's handwriting is perfect and again things can be misread.

    CRAs do not claim to be a 100% record, other lenders/ vendors/ service providers are aware of this hence why some dont bother even using them, some only use part of the services and others use them more fully. As the Experian Rep has said, they provide "scores", they dont give black and white answers, yes/ no its the customer, yes/no lend to them, they just give a score and the service provider makes the choice.

    CRAs do not claim to police the data either, they are a store not a validator. As per the DPA, if you inform them data is wrong with evidence then they must correct it. Likewise, given your monika, if you've been the victim of identity fraud you also have CIFAS who will also note on your files both with themselves and the CRAs
    Originally posted by InsideInsurance
    You see II, you are describing what CRAs have become, and we are not off topic because we are talking about security of our personal data and Aggregators are a seriously regular accessor of and provider of the data that ends up in our CRA records. Ask yourself why Experian Company Representative entered this thread so early.

    CRAs are not supposed to be the repository of all data, true data alongside false data, typo or not. They have no right to store such garbage, and the idea of them being let loose with fuzzy logic is running and being given sharp objects to play with before they can even walk.

    And you mention CIFAS as if it is another good thing. It isn't. It's nearly two weeks since I called the bank that issued the fraudulent card account and established that they had no idea what they had done. Nearly two weeks since they said they would register it with CIFAS. Nothing. And though I was registered on CIFAS previously, it just dropped off after 12 months and was no use whatsoever in protecting my identity against the next attack. Identity Fraud is Serious Organised Crime. Those behind it are far more seriously organised than CRAs banks, aggregators or CIFAS. But there's lots that don't care, either because they haven't a clue or because they don't want to handle any general alarm amongst their markets.
    Last edited by VictimOfImpersonation; 29-12-2013 at 8:54 PM.
    • InsideInsurance
    • By InsideInsurance 29th Dec 13, 9:08 PM
    • 22,213 Posts
    • 11,383 Thanks
    InsideInsurance
    Aggregators simply access scores, not data. They simply deposit that either an ID check or query for the purposes of insurance has been made. Lets me a little realistic about these things.

    They have the right to store what data is presented to them under the terms they have with those entitled to deposit information. You have the right to have corrections made and must exercise that right. It is never going to be realistic to have the CRAs validate every single piece of information received and for the 99.9% we are happy that we can do a loan request online and get a decision in seconds which is enabled by the credit reference agencies.

    Fuzzy logic is here to stay until the day we get our barcodes/ microchips at birth and a global directory of people is created. At that point, your concerns of local dbs of information will pale in comparison to what can be done with a definitive global db.

    Banks, insurers, CIFAS, FOS, CRAs etc all operate much slower than the majority of consumers would like. 2 weeks, especially over xmas, is unlikely to be a realistic timescale for resolution
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    Aggregators simply access scores, not data. They simply deposit that either an ID check or query for the purposes of insurance has been made. Lets me a little realistic about these things.

    They have the right to store what data is presented to them under the terms they have with those entitled to deposit information. You have the right to have corrections made and must exercise that right. It is never going to be realistic to have the CRAs validate every single piece of information received and for the 99.9% we are happy that we can do a loan request online and get a decision in seconds which is enabled by the credit reference agencies.

    Fuzzy logic is here to stay until the day we get our barcodes/ microchips at birth and a global directory of people is created. At that point, your concerns of local dbs of information will pale in comparison to what can be done with a definitive global db.

    Banks, insurers, CIFAS, FOS, CRAs etc all operate much slower than the majority of consumers would like. 2 weeks, especially over xmas, is unlikely to be a realistic timescale for resolution
    Originally posted by InsideInsurance
    Well if they take two weeks to set a CIFAS registration and it takes seconds to get another credit agreement online which will for 2 weeks not be blocked by CIFAS, I think I think they may be well behind the curve, II. So might you - the global db you speak of already exists for the western world and large parts of the rest of it within intelligence agency networks. But the point is, although corporates have no right to it they are successfully attempting to parallel it by cosying up to government agencies.

    I don't mind my government holding a certain amount of data, but corporates? I go back to my point about letting the wrong people loose with sharp objects.

    As I have said before, I don't need an instant online credit decision and I fail to see any significant call for it. Personal credit shouldn't be that easy and because it has been in the UK for too long, we have one of the largest national average levels of personal indebtedness in the world.

    That is a bad thing to continue with and anything facilitating it is a bad thing.

    They [CRAs, Aggregators whoever ('Data Controllers' per the DPA)] have the right to store what data is presented to them under the terms they have with those entitled to deposit information.
    Wrong. They have no right to obtain and retain and/or process that data if they a contravening DPA e.g. by obtaining the data recklessly.
    You have the right to have corrections made and must exercise that right.
    I also have the additional right of freedom to publish what I think should be published here in the much broader interest for as long as MSE let me.
    your concerns of local dbs of information will pale in comparison...
    The question of my right to force deletion of a single record pales into insignificance compared to our right as the public to force CRAs to tidy up their unlawful acts across the piste.
    Last edited by VictimOfImpersonation; 29-12-2013 at 9:59 PM.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 29th Dec 13, 10:09 PM
    • 20,777 Posts
    • 12,867 Thanks
    dacouch
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=64198408#post64198408
    • InsideInsurance
    • By InsideInsurance 29th Dec 13, 10:12 PM
    • 22,213 Posts
    • 11,383 Thanks
    InsideInsurance
    The question of my right to force deletion of a single record
    There is no right to delete records, only correct errors - yet at least though the EU are discussing introducing the rights to demand deletion

    I also have the additional right of freedom to publish what I think should be published here in the much broader interest for as long as MSE let me.
    As other people have the right to to publish what they think of what you are saying.

    Well if they take two weeks to set a CIFAS registration and it takes seconds to get another credit agreement online which will for 2 weeks not be blocked by CIFAS, I think I think they may be well behind the curve, II. So might you - the global db you speak of already exists for the western world and large parts of the rest of it within intelligence agency networks. But the point is, although corporates have no right to it they are successfully attempting to parallel it by cosying up to government agencies.
    As already said, the processes are always too slow but until anyone makes millions from it then it'll never be that well systemised or staffed. Realistically only the likes of CRAs are going to be able to make a decent enough profit from investing large sums into counter fraud technology to actually make a business case stack up -v- other options for the capital investment.

    To the governmental databases, think you need an element of realism in there about what they have in any form of usable systems. Just look at the USA government and its ESTA process, I did accidently put details in wrong (date of birth in this case) and it all went through instantly despite dob given and dob on the british passport not matching and given british is an acquired nationality and birth nationality is a non-friendly nation to the US, you'd have thought that these amazing shared databases they have would have thrown up concerns.

    Corporate systems are probably better, more complete, certainly more sophisticated and more usable. For your concerns, then thankfully natural competition between corporates will limit the amount of data sharing and thus completeness of the picture. Our promiscuity as customers is the only thing that is distributing our data further than it traditionally was
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    I am beginning to think your thinking is tainted by the sordid world from which you gain a living, II.

    How can you possibly assert that I have no right to make the CRA delete the completely fraudulent record from my file?

    You are clearly no lawyer.

    Customers have been made promiscuous both by the ease of credit, and by the sordid morals of the corporates.

    Corporates have both encouraged customers to break covenants of old which demonstrated loyalty and themselves have reneged on promises (especially insurance and investment related promises) to such a degree old brands were dumped and any suggested brand loyalty is now pure hype not based on any real standard but on some jingle.

    And you talk of natural competition when there is none. It is all corrupted by massive cartels controlled by remarkably few individuals in both banking and insurance.

    Congratulations on being an unwitting part of it who has been liberally equipped I see to use all the necessary soundbites to make it smell nicer, even if the looks behind the scenes continue to be a real giveaway.

    The news is - it's no good. The news was finally out 5 years ago but remarkably the sheeple still haven't cottoned have they?
    • InsideInsurance
    • By InsideInsurance 30th Dec 13, 6:50 AM
    • 22,213 Posts
    • 11,383 Thanks
    InsideInsurance
    I have never claimed to be a lawyer.

    Please show me any piece of legislation that states you have the right to demand any organisation deletes data. There is a proposal for this but at present the law states you can only demand that information is correct/ accurate and deletion is not necessarily the only way that this can be achieved.

    Customers have been made promiscuous both by the ease of credit
    How is ease of credit relevant to people choosing to shop around for their insurance and switching to save less than £1?

    Corporates have both encouraged customers to break covenants of old which demonstrated loyalty and themselves have reneged on promises (especially insurance and investment related promises) to such a degree old brands were dumped and any suggested brand loyalty is now pure hype not based on any real standard but on some jingle.
    Which promises have insurers wholesale reneged on?

    It is all corrupted by massive cartels controlled by remarkably few individuals in both banking and insurance
    Who are these individuals in the insurance industry?
  • VictimOfImpersonation
    OK II, I give up. Clearly you have all the answers you need to justify your own take on it.

    You haven't yet become aware of the tiny groups that control some of the world's largest financial services companies ? You think they are part of a "free" market? Yes there is just enough free market type activity to fool most people but if you take a long hard look at who is behind some of the reinsurers it is quite fascinating how quickly you reach the point at the top of the pyramid

    Same with banking of course but that became much more transparent after Lehman.
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