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    • Butterfly Brain
    • By Butterfly Brain 6th Nov 13, 12:09 PM
    • 8,736 Posts
    • 61,001 Thanks
    Butterfly Brain
    • #2
    • 6th Nov 13, 12:09 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Nov 13, 12:09 PM
    It is a universal car crash and the ones who will suffer will be the poorest, who can't afford the internet it is a catch 22 situation and IDS should face trial for the tax payers money that has been lost because of his hatred of the most vulnerable
    Blessed are the cracked for they are the ones that let in the light
    C.R.A.P R.O.L.L.Z. Member #35 Butterfly Brain + OH - Foraging Fixers
    Not Buying it 2015!
    • Morglin
    • By Morglin 6th Nov 13, 12:45 PM
    • 14,659 Posts
    • 26,975 Thanks
    Morglin
    • #3
    • 6th Nov 13, 12:45 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Nov 13, 12:45 PM
    Not as unprepared as the government though!

    The whole thing is descending into chaos, and as it has 'been red flagged' (by the government auditors) and seen as unlikely to succeed in it's present format, as the IT system cannot cope, then it may be that the whole thing will have to changed.


    Lin
    You can tell a lot about a woman by her hands..........for instance, if they are placed around your throat, she's probably slightly upset.
    • ptwparkinson
    • By ptwparkinson 6th Nov 13, 1:05 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    ptwparkinson
    • #4
    • 6th Nov 13, 1:05 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Nov 13, 1:05 PM
    so one of the side effects of universal credit is to bring more people into mainstream banking --- so the banks will be making even more money and whoever is running this part of the banking system will probably be paid a healthy bonus ------ it`s time now that the people actually woke up and smelled the coffee ( well those who can afford the coffee )
  • thornelius
    • #5
    • 6th Nov 13, 9:00 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Nov 13, 9:00 PM
    Why does it have to be paid monthly? Its alright for those over paid millionaire politicians who have plenty in the bank to not need to worry about running out of milk/bread/nappies but what about the rest of us?! There's no way I'd manage if everything was paid once a month and I'm not in the poorest of brackets. This whole thing is just asking for trouble
    Was In Debt

    But Now I'm Not

    Now To Get Some Savings!!
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 6th Nov 13, 9:36 PM
    • 1,237 Posts
    • 2,006 Thanks
    tomtom256
    • #6
    • 6th Nov 13, 9:36 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Nov 13, 9:36 PM
    Why does it have to be paid monthly? Its alright for those over paid millionaire politicians who have plenty in the bank to not need to worry about running out of milk/bread/nappies but what about the rest of us?! There's no way I'd manage if everything was paid once a month and I'm not in the poorest of brackets. This whole thing is just asking for trouble
    Originally posted by thornelius
    You get the same amount just in a lump sum. Where is the issue?

    Those that work that get paid monthly have the same issues!
    • BigAunty
    • By BigAunty 7th Nov 13, 10:38 AM
    • 7,941 Posts
    • 14,422 Thanks
    BigAunty
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 13, 10:38 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 13, 10:38 AM
    Why does it have to be paid monthly?
    Originally posted by thornelius
    I haven't been paid weekly since a cash in hand job as a teenager and I'm in my forties now. Monthly income is the norm.

    I know one of the reasons why Local Housing Allowance was switched to being paid directly to tenants was to improve their readiness for employment by taking responsibility for their own personal budget. Perhaps this is a reason why UC is following a monthly path - to mimic most employment income? I don't know, just musing.

    At the end of the day, the recipient receives the same sum of money for the period.
    • Toto
    • By Toto 7th Nov 13, 1:03 PM
    • 6,447 Posts
    • 10,913 Thanks
    Toto
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 13, 1:03 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 13, 1:03 PM
    My concern is how people ensure they're being paid correctly if all of these benefits are rolled into one. I've seen hundreds of threads over the years regarding tax credits overpayments and incorrect awards. The advice is to double check every detail of course but with one payment for six benefits I see a potential for massive issues. Not everyone has good financial knowledge or the ability to understand complex awards.


    "Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid" - Albert Einstein
    • BigAunty
    • By BigAunty 7th Nov 13, 1:07 PM
    • 7,941 Posts
    • 14,422 Thanks
    BigAunty
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 13, 1:07 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 13, 1:07 PM
    My concern is how people ensure they're being paid correctly if all of these benefits are rolled into one. I've seen hundreds of threads over the years regarding tax credits overpayments and incorrect awards. The advice is to double check every detail of course but with one payment for six benefits I see a potential for massive issues. Not everyone has good financial knowledge or the ability to understand complex awards.
    Originally posted by Toto
    UC sounds like a dogs dinner in terms of its implementation. However, the original concept was a sound one - making benefit payments simpler and quicker by rolling a number of separate benefits into a single payment, cutting down on fraud and error.

    Currently there are 50+ benefits, credits and allowances to administer, with some of the systems not integrated with each other that allows these errors to fester.
    • MissMoneypenny
    • By MissMoneypenny 7th Nov 13, 1:28 PM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 8,426 Thanks
    MissMoneypenny

    Currently there are 50+ benefits, credits and allowances to administer, with some of the systems not integrated with each other that allows these errors to fester.
    Originally posted by BigAunty
    Plus all the staff the state pays to administrate them.
    As someone on here said before, if it was the other way around and UC was being split into 6 benefits: where some benefits were to dealt with by all the different councils in the UK and others dealt with by various other government offices, we would say what a waste of taxpayers money that was, to be funding all those extra staff.

    The idea of paying UC monthly is because UC will be all the income based benefits for those of working age. When claimants get off UC, they will no doubt have a job where they are paid monthly and UC will have prepared them for this.
    Last edited by MissMoneypenny; 07-11-2013 at 1:32 PM.
    RENTING? Have you checked to see that your landlord has permission from their mortgage lender to rent the property? If not, you could be thrown out with very little notice.
    Read the sticky on the House Buying, Renting & Selling board.


    • BigAunty
    • By BigAunty 7th Nov 13, 2:02 PM
    • 7,941 Posts
    • 14,422 Thanks
    BigAunty
    ... if it was the other way around and UC was being split into 6 benefits: where some benefits were to dealt with by all the different councils in the UK and others dealt with by various other government offices, we would say what a waste of taxpayers money that was, to be funding all those extra staff.

    ....
    Originally posted by MissMoneypenny
    In fact, I don't think UC goes far enough - every benefit should be rolled up into one single monthly payment. Also, council tax and benefits should be on the same system, too, instead of the split between central and local government.

    Currently, a benefit claimant can identify their entitlements using an online benefit wizard so can get a single overview of what they should receive in five minutes - then they have to go off and apply for a handful or more separate forms to various separate bodies that get paid at different periods across the month.

    It's a shame that all the benefits, allowances and credits can't be applied for online at the same time, held as a single record that warrants a single monthly payment.
    • MissMoneypenny
    • By MissMoneypenny 7th Nov 13, 2:11 PM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 8,426 Thanks
    MissMoneypenny
    In fact, I don't think UC goes far enough - every benefit should be rolled up into one single monthly payment. Also, council tax and benefits should be on the same system, too, instead of the split between central and local government.

    Currently, a benefit claimant can identify their entitlements using an online benefit wizard so can get a single overview of what they should receive in five minutes - then they have to go off and apply for a handful or more separate forms to various separate bodies that get paid at different periods across the month.

    It's a shame that all the benefits, allowances and credits can't be applied for online at the same time, held as a single record that warrants a single monthly payment.
    Originally posted by BigAunty
    The present system isn't fit for purpose and costs too much to run.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see all the benefits (and whatever other benefits they give fancy names to) rolled into one payment in the future. The cost of setting it all up would pay for itself in the end. It is going to be a massive job but any future welfare changes will be much easier to implement.

    EDIT. One funny thing I read on another site. One person said that if Universal Credit is going to make them increase their work hours from the 24 hours per week they do now between them, to 35 hours per week each at NMW, then they wouldn't be able to claim benefits anymore.
    Last edited by MissMoneypenny; 07-11-2013 at 2:23 PM.
    RENTING? Have you checked to see that your landlord has permission from their mortgage lender to rent the property? If not, you could be thrown out with very little notice.
    Read the sticky on the House Buying, Renting & Selling board.


  • Morlock
    The present system isn't fit for purpose and costs too much to run.
    Originally posted by MissMoneypenny
    How much does the present system cost to run compared to when UC is implemented?
  • Morlock
    I think the monthly payment aspect is the least relevant change, although some will struggle to stretch a small amount of money for that length of time.

    The most significant change is extending the sanction regime from ESA and JSA claimants only, to Working Tax Credit claimants too. The number of sanctions against claimants, often for spurious reasons, is increasing dramatically. WTC claimants will also get a taste of the punitive sanctions regime, which seems to be the dominating factor in getting people 'off benefits'.
    Last edited by Morlock; 07-11-2013 at 3:32 PM.
    • BigAunty
    • By BigAunty 7th Nov 13, 3:36 PM
    • 7,941 Posts
    • 14,422 Thanks
    BigAunty
    ...

    EDIT. One funny thing I read on another site. One person said that if Universal Credit is going to make them increase their work hours from the 24 hours per week they do now between them, to 35 hours per week each at NMW, then they wouldn't be able to claim benefits anymore.
    Originally posted by MissMoneypenny
    Sounds like they are a household of 2 parents and kids as 24 hours is the minimum hours required to qualify for Working Tax Credits.

    A household on NMW would earn around £150 a week and therefore one with kids is likely to qualify for significant tax credits, housing benefit and council tax discount.

    Before the change that bumped it up from 16 to 24, there were 212, 000 households in the UK where one parent in a two parent household worked just part time. I believe that they can do this under the current system until their youngest child leaves full time education or turns 20.

    Under UC, I believe that more hours of employment are expected as the children grow older. Therefore, by the sounds of it, the example you came across is a household that would be expected to earn £440 a week (based on 70 hours per week for the two adults on NMW), nearly three times their current earnings.

    So yes, this could theoretically lift some households with certain aged children off benefits but some will still qualify for continuing benefits. Not sure where the jobs are going to come from now the previous governments have encouraged a culture of part time employment.
    • MissMoneypenny
    • By MissMoneypenny 7th Nov 13, 4:01 PM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 8,426 Thanks
    MissMoneypenny
    I think the monthly payment aspect is the least relevant change, although some will struggle to stretch a small amount of money for that length of time.
    Originally posted by Morlock
    Some people on benefits have more cash for food and bills every week, than those who work full time! Those working will be paying taxes; travelling costs; work clothes; mortgage/rent and full council tax. Yet they seem to manage to "stretch a small amount of money for that length of time" because they have to.

    The most significant change is extending the sanction regime from ESA and JSA claimants only, to Working Tax Credit claimants too. The number of sanctions against claimants, often for spurious reasons, is increasing dramatically. WTC claimants will also get a taste of the punitive sanctions regime, which seems to be the dominating factor in getting people 'off benefits'.
    Originally posted by Morlock
    Tax Credits claimants are often happy to remain on those benefits long term, because they aren't subject to the other income based benefit rules and sanctions! It's right that they too are now included in the sanctions and work programmes if they don't do more to keep their families.
    Last edited by MissMoneypenny; 07-11-2013 at 4:03 PM.
    RENTING? Have you checked to see that your landlord has permission from their mortgage lender to rent the property? If not, you could be thrown out with very little notice.
    Read the sticky on the House Buying, Renting & Selling board.


    • BigAunty
    • By BigAunty 7th Nov 13, 6:04 PM
    • 7,941 Posts
    • 14,422 Thanks
    BigAunty
    Some people on benefits have more cash for food and bills every week, than those who work full time! ...

    Tax Credits claimants are often happy to remain on those benefits long term, because they aren't subject to the other income based benefit rules and sanctions! It's right that they too are now included in the sanctions and work programmes if they don't do more to keep their families.
    Originally posted by MissMoneypenny
    Funnily enough I dipped into the Beveridge report yesterday because of a thread in DT and he explicitly warned back in the 40s of the welfare trap that could prevail if the means testing was not appropriately set.

    For example, he wrote in his report "in establishing a national minimum, it should leave room and encouragement for voluntary action by each individual to provide more than that minimum for himself and his family".

    Having more than 200,000 families with 2 parents where only one works part time and they claim child tax and working tax credits (plus HB for many of them) is the antithesis of this.

    Beveridge wanted a system where (large?) families were only paid child benefits during interruptions to employment otherwise they would be better off in unemployment.

    Tax credits that take into account children have largely eroded the distinction in income between some fully employed and some non or under employed families in the UK.

    Of course, he failed to predict many factors that have led to the majority of people in the UK receiving benefits of one kind or another - immigration, the rise of lone parenthood, the housing crisis, in work poverty, etc.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 7th Nov 13, 6:22 PM
    • 32,908 Posts
    • 65,341 Thanks
    seven-day-weekend
    Why does it have to be paid monthly? Its alright for those over paid millionaire politicians who have plenty in the bank to not need to worry about running out of milk/bread/nappies but what about the rest of us?! There's no way I'd manage if everything was paid once a month and I'm not in the poorest of brackets. This whole thing is just asking for trouble
    Originally posted by thornelius
    Most employment is paid monthly or four-weekly. People will have to learn (maybe after being taught) to budget their money.
    Member #10 of £2 savers club
    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 7th Nov 13, 6:35 PM
    • 32,908 Posts
    • 65,341 Thanks
    seven-day-weekend
    I think UC is a good idea in principal, bringing several Benefits under one banner. I also think being paid monthly, paying rent oneself with the money one is given and and having to be paid into a Bank account is good. Join the rest of the human race, it's empowering.

    However there are going to be many people who will need to be taught budgeting skills. Some charities already do this (CAP MONEY course is one : https://capuk.org/i-want-help/cap-money-course); hopefully others will be forthcoming. Other people will need help in opening a Bank account.

    But in principle I think it is a good idea if the initial blips can be ironed out.
    Member #10 of £2 savers club
    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton
    • ALIBOBSY
    • By ALIBOBSY 8th Nov 13, 11:41 AM
    • 4,432 Posts
    • 16,463 Thanks
    ALIBOBSY
    I think the big issue for alot moving from weekly to monthly is how the process is actioned. I don't think the payments should be 4 weekly where the payment moves around in the month, this makes it extremely difficult for people to budget to cover direct debits and bills, if we want it to be more like work it should be a set day in the month.

    Also the changeover needs to have more than just a few weeks notice, they need to write out with an actual changeover date at least a couple of months ahead to give people time to start putting something away for the period when they will have 4 weeks without income. TBH perhaps something could be done with timing so when they start to change people over they get the last weekly payment, then fortnightly for a month, then finally into monthly.

    The thing is if you were working and being paid weekly then had to move to a monthly pay you would have enough income to, stand a chance of putting something away as a cushion to get you through the "month in hand", people on weekly benefits often are on lower amounts and may really struggle to in effect live one month on one weeks pay.

    We will see how they manage the change over.

    Ali x
    "Overthinking every little thing
    Acknowledge the bell you cant unring"

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