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  • FIRST POST
    • guernica
    • By guernica 21st Aug 13, 9:54 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 17Thanks
    guernica
    ParkingEye - Letter Before County Court Claim, NOT LBA.
    • #1
    • 21st Aug 13, 9:54 PM
    ParkingEye - Letter Before County Court Claim, NOT LBA. 21st Aug 13 at 9:54 PM
    Hi All,

    I have 2 PCNs from ParkingEye, spaced about a month apart.

    I have previously received the usual Letter Before Actions from ParkingEye, and replied as follows:

    "I, the defendant, am writing to confirm that I have received the claimant's ‘Letter Before Action' dated XXXXXX, reference: XXXXXX. The VRM referenced in the claimant's letter is XXXXXX. This is a formal Acknowledgement of the Letter Before Claim as required by the Practice Direction on Pre-action Conduct .
    I would like to refer you to two web sites that clearly explain what procedures and information you need to follow prior to court action.

    The first is the Citizen's Advice web site here:

    LINK REMOVED

    The second are the Ministry of Justice's Practice Direction web pages here:

    LINK REMOVED

    The procedures in the above pages are compulsory and you will see that your Letter Before Action fails in numerous respects to follow these instructions.


    Be assured that each and every failure to comply will be included in my defence and may even result in any action being struck out.


    Therefore, I would like to bring your attention to the aforementioned Prac
    tice Direction on Pre-action Conduct (hereinafter referred to as 'PD'), in particular Section 7 relating to Letters Before Claims, and Annex A explaining the information that must be provided in the Letter Before Action.


    First of all, it is apparent that the claimant's Letter Before Action fails to notify myself, an individual, of the PD document.


    The letter also fails to state which documents the claimant intends to rely upon as evidence, and a detailed breakdown of how the claimant's loss has been calculated, so please also provide this missing information as soon as possible.


    Furthermore, Section 8 of the PD sets out details on Alternative Dispute Resolution, which I have noted the claimants Letter Before Action has also failed to mention. Fortunately as a member of the British Parking Association, an independent resolution solution is open to the claimant, namely the Parking On Private Land Appeals Service (POPLA). I therefore invite you to issue a POPLA code, which will allow this dispute to be settled without the need for court action.


    As the claimant’s Letter Before Action does not comply with the PD on the above points, the defendant is unable to comply with the PD until the claimant has provided the further information requested in this letter.

    Alternatively, you may simply wish to cancel the charge."
    I have now received my first "LETTER BEFORE COUNTY COURT ACTION".
    Is this normal? I might also add that on the reverse on the letter (I would like to scan it in but have no access to a scanner right now, and my iPhone is not connecting to My Computer ) are the following numbered bullet points. I have condensed them:

    1) Please be aware this Letter Before County Court Claim (*I will call LBCCC*) is fully compliant with the PD. We must draw attention to the practice direction etc etc etc.

    2) We are unable to use the POPLA service at this stage. This is because POPLA only accept appeal after the motorist has made their appeal to the operator and the operator has rejected these and offered a POPLA appeal form. (*the letter then goes on to quote their previous correspondence regarding the 28 day timescales*)

    3) The loss claimed in this LBCCC is in line with guidelines set out by the British Parking Association. ParkingEye have also ensured that their Parking Charge amount is not punitive and set on the basis of a strong commercial justification for charges of this nature. (*this one is a direct quote*)

    4) As court proceedings have not begun, and as no defence has been filed, it is impossible for ParkingEye to state exactly what documents will be relied on in court. They could include Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, BPA Code of Practice, signs on-site, etc etc etc. "These will be provided at this stage and not sooner" (*Is this last point valid? It was my understanding the defendant needed to have access to all evidence*)

    So, they HAVE replied to my correspondence. I imagine I should now expect further action to be taken, right?

    Oh, and finally, the front of the letter is very similar to the LBA, and demands payment of 100 to be made within the next 14 days. It requests nothing else of me. As said above, I am expecting ANOTHER one of these to come through the door. I can not afford 200 to give to these leeches.

    What next guys? Please also anyone else share experiences of a LBCCC.

    Many thanks.



Page 1
  • Scouse Magic
    • #2
    • 22nd Aug 13, 12:37 AM
    • #2
    • 22nd Aug 13, 12:37 AM
    That is unusual...normally after a LBA the next step is the county court claim form......PE will claim all sorts of loss but in reality, if no one used the car parks, they would still have the same operational costs.....the charge is a deterrent and therefore penal which is unenforceable
    • guernica
    • By guernica 22nd Aug 13, 5:50 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    • #3
    • 22nd Aug 13, 5:50 AM
    • #3
    • 22nd Aug 13, 5:50 AM
    I will scan the letter in today for clarification.

    So I should start building a defence? Also as I have TWO PCNs from them, will I be expected to make two court appearances?
  • Custard Pie
    • #4
    • 22nd Aug 13, 7:55 AM
    • #4
    • 22nd Aug 13, 7:55 AM
    It's what's known as posturing. PE will do everything in their power to avoid going to Court and getting paid. Win or lose at Court, they lose money and they exist purely for financial gain alone. This new tactic appears to have worked to a degree (for now) in getting people to pay up rather than go to Court. They recently issued a 1000 Court claims in a day.

    Stick to your guns, state your position once (which I believe that you have done) then leave them in no uncertain terms that they either cancel the charge or take you to Court. If they do, you have a PPC who didn't follow the Court procedure, refused to try to resolve the issue prior by going to mediation (PoPLA) and then quoted BPA Code of Practice over Statute Law in an attempt to get money out of you.

    I doubt very much that they would go to Court and there is a good chance that it wouldn't get that far anyway if you present these facts to a judge.

    Call their bluff.
    Search my post " PoPLA evidence - What to submit" on what is a good defense for a PoPLA appeal.
    • guernica
    • By guernica 22nd Aug 13, 8:14 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    • #5
    • 22nd Aug 13, 8:14 AM
    • #5
    • 22nd Aug 13, 8:14 AM
    It's what's known as posturing. PE will do everything in their power to avoid going to Court and getting paid. Win or lose at Court, they lose money and they exist purely for financial gain alone. This new tactic appears to have worked to a degree (for now) in getting people to pay up rather than go to Court. They recently issued a 1000 Court claims in a day.

    Stick to your guns, state your position once (which I believe that you have done) then leave them in no uncertain terms that they either cancel the charge or take you to Court. If they do, you have a PPC who didn't follow the Court procedure, refused to try to resolve the issue prior by going to mediation (PoPLA) and then quoted BPA Code of Practice over Statute Law in an attempt to get money out of you.

    I doubt very much that they would go to Court and there is a good chance that it wouldn't get that far anyway if you present these facts to a judge.

    Call their bluff.
    Originally posted by Custard Pie
    Yes, I follow you - I have been given yet another 14 days to pay up or face court

    Come at me, ParkingEye.

    (Also, my only issue is that I do not have a reasonable defence. The signs are well displayed, I just didn't pay the 10 overnight parking fee. I can only fall back on the fact that the penalty is not enforceable - I am fine with this, just keeping you guys in the loop)

    EDIT: Custard Pie, when you say "They recently issued a 1000 Court claims in a day" do you mean actual court dates? Surely this contradicts when you say "PE will do everything in their power to avoid going to Court". I may be misunderstanding you.
    Last edited by guernica; 22-08-2013 at 8:19 AM.
    • Computersaysno
    • By Computersaysno 22nd Aug 13, 8:49 AM
    • 1,118 Posts
    • 887 Thanks
    Computersaysno
    • #6
    • 22nd Aug 13, 8:49 AM
    • #6
    • 22nd Aug 13, 8:49 AM
    EDIT: Custard Pie, when you say "They recently issued a 1000 Court claims in a day" do you mean actual court dates? Surely this contradicts when you say "PE will do everything in their power to avoid going to Court". I may be misunderstanding you.
    Originally posted by guernica
    Issuing a claim and going to court are two different things.

    Issuing just starts the process and a letter turns up at the defendant address.

    There's a lot that can happen between that and actually getting into the courtroom [actually its just a small meeting room].

    PE issue a lot of claims [indeed 1000 in one day in July iirc], but very few actually get to court; either because the defendant caves in and pays up or because PE realise they will lose and drop it.[Note as an aside that PE typically loses money even if they win a court case [as they can't claim all expenses].]
    Welcome to the world of 'Protect the brand at the cost of free speech'
  • Custard Pie
    • #7
    • 22nd Aug 13, 8:59 AM
    • #7
    • 22nd Aug 13, 8:59 AM
    So, the total loss to PE in their claim is 10. By offering that though and identifying yourself as the driver you open yourself up to the full amount as by being there it could be interpreted that you understood and accepted the contract.

    Common sense though doesn't come into it. It doesn't matter that you were there and forgot to pay the charge, the fact that they would pursue you for an unreasonable amount means the gloves are off.

    Do they have the legal right to pursue the amount for the land?
    Their claim of being able to pursue their costs does not make it a breach of contract, but a penalty, which changes the rules around VAT and invoicing.

    Sometimes in life people make mistakes, but that does not mean that someone has to be there to exploit the situation beyond what the punishment or remedy merits.
    Search my post " PoPLA evidence - What to submit" on what is a good defense for a PoPLA appeal.
    • hoohoo
    • By hoohoo 22nd Aug 13, 9:59 AM
    • 1,679 Posts
    • 3,118 Thanks
    hoohoo
    • #8
    • 22nd Aug 13, 9:59 AM
    • #8
    • 22nd Aug 13, 9:59 AM
    PE issue a lot of claims [indeed 1000 in one day in July iirc], but very few actually get to court; either because the defendant caves in and pays up or because PE realise they will lose and drop it.[Note as an aside that PE typically loses money even if they win a court case [as they can't claim all expenses].]
    Originally posted by Computersaysno
    I haven't heard of any cases yet where PE drop out before they go to court. You should therefore assume that PE will go 'all the way' with your case, regardless of how much it will cost them. Now you have a 'proper' LBC, you need to start the dance and reply as per zzzlazydaisy's thread.

    Useful documents to ask for will be, if they intend to use them: their contract with the landowner, the full address of any witness they want to use, their internal case history, a full break down of any pre-estimate of loss, any agreement with the landowner as to costs, the sum, and the calculations which have been made in setting it which has been approved and agreed by the landowner, the agreement from the landowner that the sum, and the calculations which have been made in setting it has been approved, evidence that the BPA in conjunction with the Department of Transport prescribed and approved 100 as the upper level for charging for breach of contract and the reduction of 40% for early payment within 14 days, the full report by their barrister Jonathan Kirk QC and a full transcript of any case they will quote, which usually includes:
    Combined Parking Solutions v Mr SJ Thomas (2008)
    Combined Parking Solutions v Blackburn (2007)
    ParkingEye v Kevin Shelley (2013)
    Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2000)
    Mayhook v National Car Parks and Fuller (2012)
    ParkingEye v Somerfiield (2011)
    Cine Bes Filmclilk v United International Pictures (2003)
    Cavendish Square Holdings v El Makdessi (2012)
    E-Nik v Dep for Communities (2012)
    Cadogan Patroleum Holdings v Global Process Systems (2013)


    They most always quote these in their claim but never provide them.
    • guernica
    • By guernica 22nd Aug 13, 1:17 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    • #9
    • 22nd Aug 13, 1:17 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Aug 13, 1:17 PM
    I haven't heard of any cases yet where PE drop out before they go to court. You should therefore assume that PE will go 'all the way' with your case, regardless of how much it will cost them. Now you have a 'proper' LBC, you need to start the dance and reply as per zzzlazydaisy's thread.

    Useful documents to ask for will be, if they intend to use them: their contract with the landowner, the full address of any witness they want to use, their internal case history, a full break down of any pre-estimate of loss, any agreement with the landowner as to costs, the sum, and the calculations which have been made in setting it which has been approved and agreed by the landowner, the agreement from the landowner that the sum, and the calculations which have been made in setting it has been approved, evidence that the BPA in conjunction with the Department of Transport prescribed and approved 100 as the upper level for charging for breach of contract and the reduction of 40% for early payment within 14 days, the full report by their barrister Jonathan Kirk QC and a full transcript of any case they will quote, which usually includes:
    Combined Parking Solutions v Mr SJ Thomas (2008)
    Combined Parking Solutions v Blackburn (2007)
    ParkingEye v Kevin Shelley (2013)
    Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2000)
    Mayhook v National Car Parks and Fuller (2012)
    ParkingEye v Somerfiield (2011)
    Cine Bes Filmclilk v United International Pictures (2003)
    Cavendish Square Holdings v El Makdessi (2012)
    E-Nik v Dep for Communities (2012)
    Cadogan Patroleum Holdings v Global Process Systems (2013)


    They most always quote these in their claim but never provide them.
    Originally posted by hoohoo
    Thanks for that.
    Though I had already recieved an LBA and replied to it (see my first post) would you recommend me asking for these documents?

    I do have one more trick. This PCN is for not paying for a hotel car park. My girlfriend stays there regularly (one night a week - I join her each time) and so not only is she a platinum member but its possible my face may be recognised by the manager. Can the hotel ask PE to cancel?
    I suppose if I at least ask, then I can use the defence that the landowner (or whatever the situation may be) wishes the charge to be dropped.

    Thanks all.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Aug 13, 11:25 PM
    • 73,774 Posts
    • 85,990 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thanks for that.
    Though I had already recieved an LBA and replied to it (see my first post) would you recommend me asking for these documents?

    I do have one more trick. This PCN is for not paying for a hotel car park. My girlfriend stays there regularly (one night a week - I join her each time) and so not only is she a platinum member but its possible my face may be recognised by the manager. Can the hotel ask PE to cancel?
    I suppose if I at least ask, then I can use the defence that the landowner (or whatever the situation may be) wishes the charge to be dropped.

    Thanks all.
    Originally posted by guernica


    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    See all these examples of success by complaining assertively:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62837690

    Remember the Hotel won't want a bad review on TripAdvisor by a regular customer...

    But if they are unhelpful or say they 'can't help' then try this instead:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62919545#post62919545


    HTH
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • guernica
    • By guernica 23rd Aug 13, 5:47 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    See all these examples of success by complaining assertively:

    removed

    Remember the Hotel won't want a bad review on TripAdvisor by a regular customer...

    But if they are unhelpful or say they 'can't help' then try this instead:

    removed


    HTH
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    That's great news, if I'm honest I am really not looking forward to a court appearance but neither do I want to go back on the principles I've been supporting for the past few years (I literally have a wedge of letters from many different PPCs post-Oct 2012! )

    Would you recommend a letter or seeing the manager?
    What would they need? My reg obviously, but ParkingEye references too? I will also show them the recent letters threatening court action and the costs involved.
    Again, I do not have a fall back though. I simply didn't want to pay for a ticket. How can I get around this?
    Thanks again.
    • Computersaysno
    • By Computersaysno 23rd Aug 13, 7:02 AM
    • 1,118 Posts
    • 887 Thanks
    Computersaysno
    Would you recommend a letter or seeing the manager?
    Originally posted by guernica
    A letter, then there's less room for 'confusion'.
    Welcome to the world of 'Protect the brand at the cost of free speech'
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Aug 13, 10:56 PM
    • 73,774 Posts
    • 85,990 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The other case like yours that I already linked above, now updated, got theirs cancelled by complaining to the people who contracted PE:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62919545#post62919545

    Your turn next!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • guernica
    • By guernica 27th Aug 13, 6:54 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    Update: Phoned the hotel, they have cancelled the charge! Got an email confirming it too.

    Now; ONE more issue! My 14 days to reply to the Letter Before County Court Claim is approaching, its the beginning of next week. The hotel said the cancellation could take 2-3 weeks (they couldn't phone ParkingEye, it's done via fax/post.
    Would you recommend me sending a letter to PE to confirm the cancellation - or just leave it?
    Quote from the hotel:
    "if you receive any further correspondence from them please contact the hotel to check on the status on the cancellation."
    Again, thanks all, and Coupon-mad, I will keep this thread updated once I know for sure I'm clear so you can add it to your list
    • Fergie76
    • By Fergie76 27th Aug 13, 10:52 AM
    • 2,227 Posts
    • 2,293 Thanks
    Fergie76
    Email PE with a copy of email from hotel.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Aug 13, 4:21 PM
    • 73,774 Posts
    • 85,990 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Update: Phoned the hotel, they have cancelled the charge! Got an email confirming it too.

    Now; ONE more issue! My 14 days to reply to the Letter Before County Court Claim is approaching, its the beginning of next week. The hotel said the cancellation could take 2-3 weeks (they couldn't phone ParkingEye, it's done via fax/post.
    Would you recommend me sending a letter to PE to confirm the cancellation - or just leave it?
    Quote from the hotel:

    Again, thanks all, and Coupon-mad, I will keep this thread updated once I know for sure I'm clear so you can add it to your list
    Originally posted by guernica

    That is great news and you are hereby added to this 'hall of fame' post of links to successful complaints - that will help others to follow your example!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62837690



    And yes, as this is too close to court claim papers for comfort, I would CERTAINLY AND URGENTLY send PE a copy of the cancellation email if you have PE's email addy (quote the PCN number when forwarding the Hotel's email).

    If not emailing, instead just print a copy out and post it to them this week with a covering note mentioning the PCN number of course and saying 'I trust you will now cancel your intended action and will completely remove my personal data and car data from all methods of storage otherwise you will have breached the DPA... as well as the BPA CoP and the Hotel's faith in you as a credible parking management firm.'
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-08-2013 at 4:23 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • guernica
    • By guernica 28th Aug 13, 6:51 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    Something along the lines of:
    "Please find attached below the email from [hotel] whom I contacted [date of phonecall], advising that charge references [both of my references (remember I have two! shouldn't be an issue, right?)] have now been cancelled. I trust this brings this issue to a close and I trust you will now cancel your intended action and will completely remove my personal data and car data from all methods of storage otherwise you will have breached the Data Protection Act as well as the British Parking Association Code of Practice and the Hotel's faith in you as a credible parking management firm

    (up) Yours, *(thanks for that one C-m )*
    [etc etc etc]"

    Apologies if this seems like hand holding to the extreme; I just want to make sure everything is above board and leaves no room for these leeches to maneuver.

    Thanks so much again all, this is a weight off my mind. Again, I will keep this forum up to date on any activity
    Last edited by guernica; 28-08-2013 at 12:29 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Aug 13, 1:54 PM
    • 73,774 Posts
    • 85,990 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yep, I would send that and both fake PCNs should then be cancelled - but you may prefer to remove the 'up' unless you are very bold!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • guernica
    • By guernica 28th Aug 13, 2:36 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    guernica
    Yep, I would send that and both fake PCNs should then be cancelled - but you may prefer to remove the 'up' unless you are very bold!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Haha, I was joking... honest.

    Email fired off... however I'm still slightly apprehensive they're going to issue court claim papers. I shall keep you all updated.
  • Custard Pie
    You might have to remove the leeches for a few more letters yet. PPC's have been known to still attempt to pursue costs (expenses) despite having the people that initially engaged them cancel the invoice.

    Stick to your guns and be prepared to lay into the hotel if they still come after you.
    Search my post " PoPLA evidence - What to submit" on what is a good defense for a PoPLA appeal.
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