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  • FIRST POST
    Sweetsue
    PE advice please
    • #1
    • 31st Jul 13, 8:40 PM
    PE advice please 31st Jul 13 at 8:40 PM
    Hello please could we have some advice? My husband pulled into a welcome break for something to eat & a rest while driving, he takes a lot of medication for a heart condition and gets very tired, he fell asleep assuming it was free parking, he didn't notice any signs.
    He received a parking charge notice today for £100 reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days. Which the letter states is 07/08/13. It took over a week to get here.
    The letter has photographs proving he overstayed. We would be very grateful as to where we go from here, thank you.
Page 1
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 31st Jul 13, 9:41 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #2
    • 31st Jul 13, 9:41 PM
    • #2
    • 31st Jul 13, 9:41 PM
    Hello, are you in England/Wales.

    I am assuming this was a pcn that came through the post with pics of the car?

    If so, did you receive it within 14 days of the parking event?

    If the answer to all the above questions is yes, then you need to make an appeal to the PPC, who will probably reject your appeal, but they will give you a 10 digit verification code so you can appeal to POPLA (the appeals service). Since about february the regular posters on here have had 100% success rate at POPLA where people have followed their advice.

    It is important that the appeal to PE is tailored to your own circumstances as PE have recently started refusing POPLA codes on what they call 'generic' appeals, but that's okay, we can help you with that too.

    If you can just confirm the first three questions, we'll help you with your appeal.

    Daisy

    EDIT - if the PCN arrived more than 14 days after the parking event, do you stll have the envelope and does it have a date stamp on it?
    Last edited by zzzLazyDaisy; 31-07-2013 at 9:44 PM.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • Sweetsue
    • #3
    • 31st Jul 13, 10:09 PM
    • #3
    • 31st Jul 13, 10:09 PM
    Thank you so much for your reply, we live in England, we received the pcn 11days after the event with pics of the car.
    I wasn't sure whether we have grounds for appeal as they have the evidence that he overstayed, thanks again.
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 31st Jul 13, 10:41 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #4
    • 31st Jul 13, 10:41 PM
    • #4
    • 31st Jul 13, 10:41 PM
    Hi, the issue isn't about the overstay, it is about the fact that the parking companies are not complying with the law when they issue these PCNs.

    So an appeal to POPLA is on points of law. Go to the POPLA DEcisions thread at the top of this forum, and read some of the appeals and decisions. You will soon see the recurring points that win at POPLA. Don't go back further than 6 months and start with the most recent ones.

    Also, as your husband has a heart complaint, he has extra protection under the Equality Act 2010.

    As this was a motorway service area overstay, there are also some additional points that we can use.

    Have a look at this thread

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4726484

    This is an overstay on a motorway service area where someone fell asleep.

    Have a look at post 4 (and follow the link to Coupon-mad's post) and also post 11.

    From that information and using the facts of your husband's situation, you need to prepare a first draft appeal to the PPC and post it here. Don't get too bogged down with it, just do your best.

    Don't include the bit about paying £10 for now, we will talk you through that option later.

    Don't worry about the Equality Act issue, we will help you add that into the appeal letter once you get that far.

    You must appeal within 28 days of receiving the PCN which is presumed to be 2 days after the issue date.

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • Sweetsue
    • #5
    • 1st Aug 13, 11:57 AM
    • #5
    • 1st Aug 13, 11:57 AM
    Thank you Daisy, that is so helpful, I will look at all the info & draught a letter when I get home this evening.
    Sue
  • Sweetsue
    • #6
    • 1st Aug 13, 8:56 PM
    Will this do?
    • #6
    • 1st Aug 13, 8:56 PM
    Hi
    I drafted this appeal, I tried to keep it to the point and factual but not sure if is detailed enough, would be grateful for your input.


    My name
    My address
    Dear parking Eye
    I am writing regarding a parking charge notice ref ......./........ received from you for overstaying in the Welcome break .............. car park and to make a formal appeal due to the following reasons, the driver pulled into the motorway services to rest and buy something to eat and drink. After getting some refreshments the driver fell asleep in the car, The driver suffers from a serious heart condition and is taking medication which makes them very tired and they needed to rest.
    The driver did not notice any signage stating there was a two hour time limit in the car park and feels that the signs are not clearly displayed and the charge is unreasonable.
    Please uphold the appeal and cancel the charge, if you reject the appeal please supply a POPLA verification code to enable the driver to appeal further and supply further relevant information as required.
    Please supply the code within 35 days, or the driver will deem you have accepted they are not liable for the charge.
    Yours sincerely
    PRINT NAME
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 2nd Aug 13, 8:40 AM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #7
    • 2nd Aug 13, 8:40 AM
    E
    • #7
    • 2nd Aug 13, 8:40 AM
    Hi Sue

    This is fine. Just a few tweaks:

    You need to change the letter to make it clear that it is from the REgistered Keeper (as that gives them further hoops to jump through).

    So start the letter something like this...

    "I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle reg no xxxxxxx and wish to appeal against the PCN sent to me on xxxxx"

    Then add in a paragraph on the Equality Act

    "As I have explained the driver has a long term chronic heart complaint which affects day to day life and causes extreme tiredness (hence the need to stop and sleep. As such he has protection under the Equality Act 2010. As the overstay was directly related to the condition which gives rise to the Equality Act protection, this charge is against the terms of the BPA code of practice. If you do not cancel this charge I will consider any continued correspondence to be harassment under the Act."

    Then you are good to go.

    Let us know what happens. If you get a POPLA code come back, as the code expires after 28 days so you are on a strict time limit for appealing to POPLA.

    They rarely cancel charges, so in the meantime please go to the POPLA decisions thread and read the more recent appeals/decisions to get a flavour for the sort of legal points that win at POPLA.

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • Sweetsue
    • #8
    • 2nd Aug 13, 11:51 AM
    • #8
    • 2nd Aug 13, 11:51 AM
    Hi Daisy
    Thank you for those points, I have amended the appeal and sent it off, I will await their reply and research in the meantime, thank you so much for your help, it is very much appreciated.
    Regards Sue .
  • Sweetsue
    • #9
    • 17th Aug 13, 6:52 PM
    Response
    • #9
    • 17th Aug 13, 6:52 PM
    Hi, I have had a response apart from parking eye & I would be grateful for any advice,

    Dear sir/ madam
    Thank you feel correspondence in relation to the parking charges incurred on 21 July 2013 a 05.50

    We are writing to advise you that your recent appeal has been referred for further information.

    You have stated that you were not the driver of the vehicle at the date and time of the breach of the terms and conditions of the car park, but you have not indicated who was.

    You have already been notified that under section 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the protection of freedom act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the drivers name or current postal address, if you are not the driver at the time you should tell us the name and the current postal address.

    You are warned that if after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the date issued) the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you, the registered keeper. This warning is given to you under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 4 of that act.

    This parking charge has been placed on hold for 14 days in order that you provide additional/further evidence.

    Alternatively payment can be made by telephone our offices on 0844 247 2981 or by visiting www.parkingeye.co.uk or by posting a check or postal order to be addressed detailed below.

    If this charge has been paid and you choose to provide further evidence relating to your appeal please forward this to us for consideration.

    ParkingEye team

    They have not sent me the POPLA code as requested where should I go from here? Thank you.

    Sue
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 17th Aug 13, 7:22 PM
    • 10,852 Posts
    • 10,334 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Get back to them

    Inform them that the BPA CoP contains the following

    Complaints, challenges and appeals
    General principles
    22.1 Under the Code you must have procedures for dealing fairly, efficiently and promptly with complaints, challenges or appeals. The procedures must give drivers and keepers the chance to challenge a parking charge notice.
    Operator procedures
    22.4 If a driver or keeper challenges a parking charge you must review the case and decide whether to:
    • uphold the parking charge and explain why it was issued and should therefore be paid, or
    • reduce or cancel the charge and take no further management action other than informing the driver.
    The POPLA web site contains the following under How to make an appeal
    Anyone can appeal such a parking charge notice providing they follow the process below. If you want someone to appeal on your behalf, such as a family member or friend, they can do so but there can only be one appeal for any one parking charge notice.

    Provided you made representations to the operator who issued the parking charge notice and these were rejected, you have 28 days to appeal against the operator’s decision. If you do appeal to POPLA, which is independent of both the operator and the BPA, an impartial Assessor will consider your case.


    Tell them that under BPA CoP and POPLA rules, they are required to afford keepers the same right of challenge and that if a POPLA Code is not forthcoming you will contact POPLA direct with the correspondence they have sent, as well as informing the BPA and DVLA that they are refusing to follow the BPA and Independent Appeals service rules.

    Tell the that to avoid such action, they MUST cancel the charge or send a POPLA code by return.

    End of !
  • Sweetsue
    Thank you very much for the information & advice, I will get back to them raising the points you mention, thanks again.
    Sue
  • Sweetsue
    Response
    Hi, i have written this letter in response and would be grateful if it could be checked over, many thanks.

    Dear Parking Eye

    Further to your letter dated ******** 2013 in relation to the parking charge incurred on ****** 2013 at **** at welcome break ******** car park.

    As previously stated the driver would like to appeal the charge and I requested a POPLA Verification code to enable the driver to appeal further.

    The POPLA website states anyone can appeal such a parking charge, It also states that if you want someone to appeal on your behalf such as family member or friend they can do so that they can only be one appeal for anyone parking charge notice, and as such you are required to afford registered keepers the same right of challenge.

    The BPA CoP also contains the following;

    22.1 under the code you must have procedures for dealing fairly efficiently and promptly with complaints challenges or appeals, the procedures must give drivers and keepers the chance to challenge the parking charge notice.
    22.4 If a driver or keep their challenges of parking charges must review the case and decide whether to:
    Uphold the parking charge and explain why it was issued and should therefore be paid, or
    Reduce or cancel the charge and take no further management action other than informing the driver.

    Under BPA CoP and POPLA rules you are required, If you reject the appeal, to send me a POPLA code, If the code is not forthcoming I will contact the POPLA direct with the correspondence that you have sent so far stating that you are refusing to follow the BPA and independent appeals service rules.

    Please cancel the charge or send a POPLA code by return.


    Yours sincerely


    Printed name
  • Sweetsue
    Couple of typo's but will amend :-/
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 18th Aug 13, 9:40 PM
    • 10,852 Posts
    • 10,334 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    This could be misinterpreted. ..".... previously stated the driver would like to appeal the charge and I requested a POPLA Verification code to enable the driver to appeal further".

    Suggests that the writer is the driver. Should it not read keeper?
  • Sweetsue
    Thank you, i'll change that bit, apart from that (& typo's) is it good to go?
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 18th Aug 13, 10:21 PM
    • 10,852 Posts
    • 10,334 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Another typo
    22.4 If a driver or keep their challenges of.....

    Keep their should be keeper.

    Do one more proof read then send it.
  • Sweetsue
    Update
    I sent my second letter to ParkingEye requesting a POPLA code, but in the meantime I thought I'd just send an email to welcome break. Much to my surprise I received an email back within 24hrs agreeing as a gesture of goodwill to cancel the PCN!!! Shocked but delighted! I can't quite believe it! Has anyone else had this result?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Aug 13, 5:05 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes they have...and well done!!

    Your case has just joined the 'hall of fame' of posters who have recently got their fake PCN cancelled by the landowner/occupier!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62837690

    That will help newbies when they see all those successful complaints!

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Sweetsue
    Thank you
    I would just like to thank everyone on the forum, especially zzzLazyDaisy, Guys Dad & Coupon-mad. It's a really scary thing to challenge these charges but with a bit of research & the advise & support of you wonderful people it's a lot less daunting.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Aug 13, 1:46 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If PE are silly enough to send you a POPLA code, use it!

    Just say briefly to POPLA that you are not liable because PE and the Store (their client) have made no loss and PE won't be able to argue otherwise because the Store have told them (their agents) to cancel it.

    Point being I think it will still cost PE money for the POPLA appeal!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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