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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Guy
    • By MSE Guy 15th May 12, 10:28 AM
    • 1,628Posts
    • 1,255Thanks
    MSE Guy
    MSE News: Half a million could lose disability benefits
    • #1
    • 15th May 12, 10:28 AM
    MSE News: Half a million could lose disability benefits 15th May 12 at 10:28 AM
    This is the discussion thread for the following MSE News Story:

    "500,000 face losing their disability benefits under government plans, it has emerged ..."

Page 1
  • cosmic-dust
    • #2
    • 15th May 12, 10:43 AM
    • #2
    • 15th May 12, 10:43 AM
    The majority will probably be those on LRC and LRM. I'm pretty sure I have read that there will no longer be low rates when PIP comes into force.

    I see no problem with people being re-assessed.
    I made a mistake once, believeing people on the internet were my virtual friends. It won't be a mistake that I make again!
    • Suarez
    • By Suarez 15th May 12, 10:53 AM
    • 945 Posts
    • 613 Thanks
    Suarez
    • #3
    • 15th May 12, 10:53 AM
    • #3
    • 15th May 12, 10:53 AM
    The fact that some people haven't even had an assessment is scandalous!
    • Credit-Crunched
    • By Credit-Crunched 15th May 12, 10:55 AM
    • 2,107 Posts
    • 4,138 Thanks
    Credit-Crunched
    • #4
    • 15th May 12, 10:55 AM
    • #4
    • 15th May 12, 10:55 AM
    I see this as a positive, those that deserve and need help get it, those who dont that are lazy and playing the system dont.

    Seems fair to me.
  • clemmatis
    • #5
    • 15th May 12, 10:57 AM
    • #5
    • 15th May 12, 10:57 AM
    I doubt they can save that much just by abolishing LRC. My MP (who sat on the Commons Committee) thinks a fairly large number of LRC claimants will get the new Standard Rate PIP. But yes, very many people who qualified fully for LRC DLA will not qualify for PIP.

    DLA has two rates for mobility, so does PIP. Some people on DLA LRM will get Standard Rate Mobility PIP. The saving on mobility will come largely from moving people down from HRM DLA to Standard Rate PIP.

    Re-assessments, already in the DLA system, could have been expanded/more fully implemented, without introducing PIP.
    • Invalidation
    • By Invalidation 15th May 12, 11:09 AM
    • 575 Posts
    • 620 Thanks
    Invalidation
    • #6
    • 15th May 12, 11:09 AM
    • #6
    • 15th May 12, 11:09 AM
    The system is still flawed..
    I was adjudged 'Disabled for life' with a degenerative back condition in 1993, I was then examined at home by a DLA Doctor who also stated I was DFL and should not do any work as I could be a danger to others as I fall a lot, yet I am still to be made to take another medical? (or pseudo medical as it isnt a medical at all). My condition is 'Degenerative' NOT REgenerative. It aint gonna get better and it isnt.
    The DWP = Legally kicking the Disabled when they are down.
    • MacMickster
    • By MacMickster 15th May 12, 11:27 AM
    • 2,946 Posts
    • 9,494 Thanks
    MacMickster
    • #7
    • 15th May 12, 11:27 AM
    • #7
    • 15th May 12, 11:27 AM
    I'm sure that both the old and new systems could be made to work, but would need a much more detailed face to face assessment to understand each claimant's needs.

    I don't see, for example, how the ability to walk 50 metres should determine the amount of money someone receives. If they have a bus stop outside their front door and shops next door to their house, then someone who can walk only 50 metres may need far less help than someone who can walk 200 metres, but lives a quarter of a mile from any amenities.

    Also, those with variable conditions may be able to get about and work for 3 weeks out of 4 (albeit with difficulty) but would need to pay for taxis the other week when their condition is worse.

    Until a much better system of assessment is devised then there are always going to be one group of people who benefit from unnecessary financial assistance whilst another don't receive assistance which is actually neededto enable them to cope with their disability. The question is where we draw the line, and how many people we are prepared to consign to the latter group to prevent people falling into the former, or vice versa.
  • wathowl
    • #8
    • 15th May 12, 11:29 AM
    • #8
    • 15th May 12, 11:29 AM
    The D.W.P says that fraudulent claims for this benefit runat around 0.05% yet around 20% of the number of claimants will be cut from thebenefit, why? because call me Dave and his pals think any government spending is wrong, disabled people are an easy target, I like most of the people onD.L.A have been through at least one medical, all claimants GP's and consultants are sent a form to complete describing the claimants disability and how it affects them no one has been given a life time award since the90's your now given an award for an indefinate period I have reached the stage where I will have start dialysis in the next few weeks this along with my other major disabilities are all organic (simple blood tests prove all my disabilities) and like most people suffering from my disabilities it is well know how it affects us in the medical community, will this stop people losing their lifeline? No do I wish there was a miracle cure that would make me well again? Of course I do I would trade my benefits tomorrow for a cure, I work full time as a self-employed person as and when I am not sat in hospitals.

    Take last week two full days waiting in hospital waiting rooms for treatment this week just one full day, next week five appointments to see different consultants, the week after admission to have my fistula done so that I can start dialysis, plus two further appointments to see consultants, then when I start my dialysis three half days a week to have the dialysis, plus at least two appointments for treatment for my other conditions per week the rest of the week is spent trying to earn a living, I lost £40.00 when they altered working tax credit last month, I would be around £38.00 a week better off if I stopped my self-employment and went back on benefits and now I live in fear of losing my D.L.A. which will mean I am housebound as my car would go we already know that the Invalidity benefit (I.V.B.) reviews have resulted in 100’s of thousands losing I.V.B. and that of the ones appealing around half of them win back their benefit on appeal only for them to be sent back for a ATOS review which again removes the benefit some people are on to their fourth review it’s like a war of attrition.



    So yes we live in fear of a bungling like the ATOS medicals have been, we hear Duncan Smith talking about soldiers who have lost limbs inconflicts fighting for Queen and Country being told that if they have an artificial limb then they don’t need Mobility component of the D.L.A.

    I am all for stopping fraud but we know that this governmentis not interested in fraud they are interested in cutting the total number ofclaimants by 20% while cutting the top rate of tax to around 14000 pepole by four hundred pouds a week, yes we are all in this together.
    Last edited by wathowl; 15-05-2012 at 11:37 AM.
    • rogerblack
    • By rogerblack 15th May 12, 11:34 AM
    • 9,273 Posts
    • 9,438 Thanks
    rogerblack
    • #9
    • 15th May 12, 11:34 AM
    • #9
    • 15th May 12, 11:34 AM
    The 30% figure is a headline-grabbing lie.

    Yes, DLA has increased 30% in the last years.
    This is due to several factors - not widespread fraud - which is estimated by the DWP at 0.5% - but a combination of demographic shifts and other things.

    The population is getting older.
    People entitled to DLA at age 65 are not reassessed.
    Young people with severe disabilities are surviving longer.

    It's only working age claimants that will be affected by PIP.
    The rise in working age claimants is 16%.

    In addition.
    70% are not 'lifetime' awards - they are indefinite awards.

    These are not scheduled for review - but can be reviewed at any time by the DWP, or when the claimant reports a change in their condition.
    'But who would do that' - I note the 0.5% fraud figure.

    Criticising lifetime awards, without recognising that lifetime needs occur is insane.
  • Broke n Broken
    DIDN'T YOU KNOW???

    All disabled people are lying, cheating, benefit scrounging scum.

    Not one disabled person works.
    They are all happy to sit on their backsides raking in thousands of pounds a week!

    All disabled people are experienced fraudsters, with law degrees, who dedicate their lives to cheating the poor defenceless government out of tax payers hard earned money.

    Some even chew through their own arm or leg so they can claim more money!

    The poor, underpaid ministers, who work their backsides off 52 weeks a year are trying their bestest, to defend the tax payer.
    Spending their own meager salary & never claiming benefits or expenses they are committed to reducing taxes for all hard working bankers!
    I wish I could fly, right up to the sky! But I can't...
    Famous Last Words: Bus?... What B....
    I reserve the right to edit my posts so you are wrong & I am right!
    • DomRavioli
    • By DomRavioli 15th May 12, 12:20 PM
    • 2,996 Posts
    • 5,129 Thanks
    DomRavioli
    I receive DLA, and I am more than happy to be assessed or re-assessed. The way I see it is that I have nothing to hide, and would give the world not to be disabled. If it makes people who don't need the help no longer have it, then so be it.
  • shedboy94
    DIDN'T YOU KNOW???

    All disabled people are lying, cheating, benefit scrounging scum.

    Not one disabled person works.
    They are all happy to sit on their backsides raking in thousands of pounds a week!

    All disabled people are experienced fraudsters, with law degrees, who dedicate their lives to cheating the poor defenceless government out of tax payers hard earned money.

    Some even chew through their own arm or leg so they can claim more money!

    The poor, underpaid ministers, who work their backsides off 52 weeks a year are trying their bestest, to defend the tax payer.
    Spending their own meager salary & never claiming benefits or expenses they are committed to reducing taxes for all hard working bankers!
    Originally posted by Broke n Broken
    No, they just pass on tips on this forum on how to pass medical examinations......!!!

    I do agree that some people incur additional expenses because of their medical conditions........but why does EVERYONE on DLA get additional money?

    Junkies and alcoholics get additional money - I'm sure they don't use it to buy drugs and alcohol.......

    Mobility cars........I know plenty of people who work FT and can afford a car, but the nice givernment gives them money to get a free one.

    Again, we have the most generous benefit system in the world. and the easiest to claim..........no wonder everyone is moaning about it being reviewed.
    • heather66
    • By heather66 15th May 12, 1:00 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 79 Thanks
    heather66
    i agree there are a few who know the in's and out's of the sysyem and theese are the ones who are needing a kick up the backsides but many people with illnesees / disabilities are under enough stress without fearing that if they do or say one wrong thing their DLA will be taken away from them
    i know someone who got DLA top rate for 5 years yet .is an instructer with the Duke of Edinburgh taking the kids for assesments eg hillwalking orienteering etc ..yet claims he cannot walk the lenght of his path or stairs without being in so much pain to the dr's
    • rogerblack
    • By rogerblack 15th May 12, 1:02 PM
    • 9,273 Posts
    • 9,438 Thanks
    rogerblack

    I do agree that some people incur additional expenses because of their medical conditions........but why does EVERYONE on DLA get additional money?
    Originally posted by shedboy94
    There is of course the slight problem with this.
    If you're going to assess care costs reasonably required to allow them to cope with their disability, this can considerably exceed current awards.

    If someone is adjudged to require 24 hour care by DLA - they are paid 70 quid a week or so.

    This falls somewhat short of the 2000 or so that it'd cost to employ staff at agency rates.
    • ineed
    • By ineed 15th May 12, 1:09 PM
    • 4,141 Posts
    • 12,134 Thanks
    ineed
    I receive DLA, and I am more than happy to be assessed or re-assessed. The way I see it is that I have nothing to hide, and would give the world not to be disabled. If it makes people who don't need the help no longer have it, then so be it.
    Originally posted by DomRavioli
    Well said, i have no problem with being assessed either; I have nothing to hide. I've never actually had a DLA assessment, then again I haven't really been on DLA very long compared to others. But I do see doctors almost every week regarding my conditions and have tests etc, so I guess DLA have been using their reports to assess me. But i've no problem so long as they can do home visits .
    • Weary soul
    • By Weary soul 15th May 12, 1:14 PM
    • 264 Posts
    • 349 Thanks
    Weary soul
    Well I'm sure a lot of people said that when ESA was introduced, and look how well that went.
    “Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, one of the three great universal lies is, “I am from the Government and I am here to help you”. ”
    • BJV
    • By BJV 15th May 12, 1:35 PM
    • 2,255 Posts
    • 3,376 Thanks
    BJV
    I live not too far away from Liverpool which is ( according to stats I was given by motability ) the disability capital of Europe.

    Disability living allowance is there to help people who need help and not as it is sometimes used in Liverpool as a cottage industry for topping up income. The system has to be reviewed so that people who really need the top up should get it but also to eliminate fraudulent claims.

    I pay a lot of tax's and do not begrudge anyone who has a real need but I do take offence to fraudulent claims. We just need to make the system fair for all.
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 15th May 12, 2:02 PM
    • 17,156 Posts
    • 42,145 Thanks
    FBaby
    DLA should be treated in the same way as child benefit. It is easy to assume that having a child will always incur - steep!- additional costs, so it is fair to be deemed not necessary to assess that the income is indeed being spent on the children (how parents than budget is their choice).

    People in receipt of DLA should have to show evidence of a financial need specifically associated to their disability. It should then be reduced if the household earns over £50K and terminated if over £60K.
  • shedboy94
    DLA should be treated in the same way as child benefit. It is easy to assume that having a child will always incur - steep!- additional costs, so it is fair to be deemed not necessary to assess that the income is indeed being spent on the children (how parents than budget is their choice).

    People in receipt of DLA should have to show evidence of a financial need specifically associated to their disability. It should then be reduced if the household earns over £50K and terminated if over £60K.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    I also feel Tax Credits should have been like child benefit - less money for additional children, not the same amount for each one. The more you have the cheaper it is for each one - you are still paying the same amount in rent/mortgage/utilities, the only additional costs are food and clothing - food can be bought and cooked in bulk which can actually work out cheaper, and children grow out of clothes so quickly then most hand-me downs are like new anyway.
    • Better Days
    • By Better Days 15th May 12, 2:27 PM
    • 2,720 Posts
    • 12,578 Thanks
    Better Days
    DLA fraud is very low, well under 1% according to the DWP. So if the government wishes to save 20% it will have to change the criteria for the mobility and care awards.

    Changing the criteria does not mean that 20% of current claims are fraudulent. It simply means that after the goalposts have been moved 20% fewer people with physical and mental health disabilities will qualify for DLA/PIP.

    The principle of regular assessment sounds fine in principle. But assessments should be fair and review periods proportionate.

    This has not been achieved in the changeover from IB to ESA. 40% of appeals against ESA decisions are found to be wrong by tribunals.

    If there is such a high rate of error in ESA awards then is this the time to go down the same road with DLA, costing the taxpayer (not Atos) a great deal of money dealing with a high volume of appeals? In addition the tribunal service is currently overwhelmed by the number of appeals so that it takes between 6 months and a year for claimant to get their appeal heard.

    One of the problems with ESA is that the opinions of the claimants medical team (GP, OT, Consultant etc) are ignored in favour of the opinion of the Atos doctor/nurse who will only have seen the claimant once for a short period, or not at all. In my case neither the Atos Doctor (Oct 2011) nor the Atos nurse (Mar 2012) assessed me in person.

    Review periods are short so that claimants are caught in a seemingly endless loop of assessment, appeal and re-assessment.

    Reviews should also take into account the underlying reason for the claimants disabilities. If they have a degenerative illness, or a genetic disorder then it is very unlikely that they will improve and review periods need to take this into account.

    Unfortunately it is the most vulnerable and the most in need who will have the greatest difficulty in navigating the changeover.
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