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    • Former MSE Helen
    • By Former MSE Helen 2nd Feb 12, 11:52 AM
    • 2,324Posts
    • 971Thanks
    Former MSE Helen
    'A warning to freelancers and the self-employed everywhere' blog discussion
    • #1
    • 2nd Feb 12, 11:52 AM
    'A warning to freelancers and the self-employed everywhere' blog discussion 2nd Feb 12 at 11:52 AM
    This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

    Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.
    Last edited by Former MSE Helen; 02-02-2012 at 2:01 PM.
Page 1
    • jamesd
    • By jamesd 2nd Feb 12, 10:46 PM
    • 23,592 Posts
    • 15,890 Thanks
    • #2
    • 2nd Feb 12, 10:46 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Feb 12, 10:46 PM
    Interesting that at 16 in 2001 she started working on Popworld and doesn't seem to have done much else in the early years. Makes me wonder if HMRC decided that she was an employee for a significant part of that time. That's another potentially nasty trap for those who think they are contractors and things weren't anything like as clear in 2001 as they seem to be now, while even now it can be difficult sometimes.
    • Percy1983
    • By Percy1983 3rd Feb 12, 12:49 PM
    • 5,001 Posts
    • 7,824 Thanks
    • #3
    • 3rd Feb 12, 12:49 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Feb 12, 12:49 PM
    I have recently setup in business but being a qualified accountant I already started doing this.

    With that my dad has started as a driving instructor this year and I keep telling him this but he isn't having any of it, I don't look forward to his tax return.
    Have my first business premises (+4th business) 01/11/2017
    Quit day job to run 3 businesses 08/02/2017
    Started third business 25/06/2016
    Son born 13/09/2015
    Started a second business 03/08/2013
    Officially the owner of my own business since 13/01/2012
    • VfM4meplse
    • By VfM4meplse 4th Feb 12, 9:58 PM
    • 32,458 Posts
    • 67,477 Thanks
    • #4
    • 4th Feb 12, 9:58 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Feb 12, 9:58 PM
    Silly girl. I bet she spent plenty of time musing over her image though!

    I've had the pleasure of having to complete a tax return since I was 23, so age is no excuse. If you're earning, you have to contribute. I don't suppose the HMRC make this any easier for "creatives" as there is the option to even out earnings?

    "No man is worth, crawling on the earth"- adapted from Bob Crewe and Bob Gaudio

    Hope is not a strategy ...A child is for life, not just 18 years....Don't get me started on the NHS, because you won't win...I love chaz-ing!
    • Stryder
    • By Stryder 6th Feb 12, 3:18 PM
    • 1,057 Posts
    • 1,478 Thanks
    • #5
    • 6th Feb 12, 3:18 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Feb 12, 3:18 PM
    nice to see good old Christian charity and understanding is live and kicking on the forums as usual
    ............... Have you ever wondered what
    ¦OO¬¬ O[]¦ Martin would look like
    ¦ _______ ¦ In a washing machine
    ¦ (()) ¦
    ¦ -------- ¦
  • flexrider
    • #6
    • 7th Feb 12, 10:01 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Feb 12, 10:01 AM
    Hmm? We are talking about a presentor here?(excuse my spelling) Normally i through presentators and wanna be celebraties have agents who look after there intrests such as Tax payments or PR accountants. Normally them kinda jobs mean good pay so i wonder if they not declared something to HMrc which is lead to a higher charge in taxation.
    "MSE Money saving challenges..8/12/13 3,500 saved so far " p.s if i been helpfully please leave me a thank you but seek official advice at all times from a pro
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 8th Feb 12, 8:22 AM
    • 6,456 Posts
    • 30,603 Thanks
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 12, 8:22 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 12, 8:22 AM
    It's not just freelancers who can get into this sort of mess, businesses can too. I always syphon off the VAT I receive when customers pay their bills into a separate account as that's not mine either. Now the rate is 20% it's a significant sum of money sitting there waiting to pay HMRC. If I wasn't disciplined it would be easy to use this money for something else.
  • mik777
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 12, 11:34 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 12, 11:34 AM
    Easy enough to put money away when things are going well, much tougher when you have immediate bills to pay of course and then you're forced to pinch the tax mans money just to keep going!
    Plus the way the tax system works and hits newbies fror six is that you are always based on what you earned last year - so can end up paying too little after a bad year/ good year situation or being hammered after a good year / bad year when money is suddenly tight but ouch when the big adjustment bill arrives just after Christmas... always great timing, cheers.
    I have personally switched to paying a fixed direct debit sum to the taxman each month - that way there's then just a slight adjustment either way in jan/july bills.
    • alypen
    • By alypen 8th Feb 12, 3:22 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 12, 3:22 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 12, 3:22 PM
    Yes, I knew about paying HMRC in advance, but had forgotten that for my second tax year I'd need to pay for the whole year and 50% on top of that in advance for the next year, all in one go. It was a lot more painful than I'd been expecting. Of course, if I'd done the sensible thing and done my tax return as soon as the tax year ended, rather than leaving it untiil January like most people, I'd have had plenty of time to deal with the situation. I'm doing my next tax return in May this time!
  • LilSpender
    So she worked as self employed directly for T4 for 11 years?
    Sorry HMRC she was obviously a 'Disguised Employee' they should pursue T4 for the lost tax as she was effectively an employee. They have no protection as she is self employed. It is the 'clients' responsibility to ensure tax is paid, its the law.

    That's why all the 'Tax evoiding' IT contractors are limited companies, its nothing to do with tax, no one will hire them otherwise. Having the ltd company there means HMRC can't bypass it and have to pursue the contractor for tax, they can't turn on the client.

    Not sure why they don't go after entertainment companies that are obviously abusing the employment & tax law? If they can get the footballers to play more or less properly why not T4 & co?
  • AllanH
    I went self-employed 1 Jun 2010 and my 1st tax bill is due Jan 2013, I put 30% away each month (paid into N&SI Premium Bonds account, as bank saving rates are dire and any chance of winning will be a bonus!), knowing that I should have some free after paying my 1st tax bill/next tax bill. HRMC also do some excellent FREE training and is a must for new people to attend. I also do my business banking with Barclays and although I dont normally promote services - the MyBusinessWorks software package (£15 per month) is an excellent package. (I also use an accountant). Hope this is helpful.
    • John_Pierpoint
    • By John_Pierpoint 10th Feb 12, 12:51 PM
    • 8,248 Posts
    • 7,388 Thanks
    There needs to be more educational advertising - especially as many people are being forced onto self employment by the current economic situation - even if you are making half of minimum wage that is better than rotting on Job Seekers Allowance.

    The shock is not just the potential income tax but ALSO that weekly tax that goes under the guise of part 2 and 4 National Insurance - As others have pointed out it comes as a nasty shock having to play catch up and pay 18 months tax in the January following the 4th of April of your first year or part year of self employment.

    Don't hope it will go away, it won't.

    If you are a bit confused someone on the "saving tax" part of the forum will put you right.
    Last edited by John_Pierpoint; 10-02-2012 at 12:57 PM.
    • miller
    • By miller 16th Feb 12, 10:34 AM
    • 1,331 Posts
    • 501 Thanks
    That's why all the 'Tax evoiding' IT contractors are limited companies, its nothing to do with tax, no one will hire them otherwise. Having the ltd company there means HMRC can't bypass it and have to pursue the contractor for tax, they can't turn on the client.
    Originally posted by LilSpender
    Why don't HMRC sort out IR35 instead of the low hanging fruit like Avon reps. I almost laughed when I read they were going after Ann Summers organisers.

    It's easier to bash the little guys who don't have the means to defend themselves and arrange sweetheart deals with big corporations who have the means to bite back.

    Of course, we are all in this together. Rant over.
    • John_Pierpoint
    • By John_Pierpoint 17th Feb 12, 4:50 AM
    • 8,248 Posts
    • 7,388 Thanks
    This is not meant as a racist remark, but migrants can take over a £100 company and be safely back home before HMRC catch up with the missing accounts and taxes - unless you know better, as the incident I am thinking of was a few years ago now.
  • togo
    Gloom and Despondency
    I got a terrible shock as a new pensioner when a Tax Demand arrived arrived for over £2,600. My meagre income for the year from a one bed cottage rental had been spent on necessary improvements to the cottage between tenants. I had a very small pension from my husband who had died suddenly and a mini part-time job invigilating as well as some money owed by someone who died and I didn't claim off their family. I had had to take my lump sum pension of £10,000 (2 years delayed) to live on, pay funeral expenses etc., and now see it was not a good idea to defer my pension because I have lost so much in Tax. Thank you for this website. I will try to read it more often!
    • John_Pierpoint
    • By John_Pierpoint 3rd May 12, 8:37 AM
    • 8,248 Posts
    • 7,388 Thanks
    We are not really on the right thread but what sort of pension was it that got "hammered" for tax because you had deferred it?

    Have you had your 65th birthday and if so roughly when (month and year will do).
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 3rd May 12, 2:44 PM
    • 16,899 Posts
    • 23,894 Thanks
    Originally posted by MSE Helen
    Oddly enough the link to the PA article in the blog is now broken - The article requested is no longer available - so here's the Daily Mail take on the subject -

    "Her publicist said: 'We can confirm that Miquita Oliver filed for bankruptcy in November 2011'."
  • bangersnmash
    "TV presenter Miquita Oliver, 27, has sadly gone bankrupt, owing the taxman £174,000"

    "A bankruptcy order was slapped on the TV presenter in respect of the aforementioned amount back on 11 November last year. Geoff Carton-Kelly of Baker Tilly’s restructuring and recovery division was subsequently appointed Trustee by Secretary of State.

    He said: “Investigating and recovering assets for the benefits of creditors is the primary role of the Trustee in Bankruptcy.

    “At this stage it is too early to comment on the level of Miss Oliver’s assets and the likely return to creditors.”

    So she's had it away with £174k and HMRC paid her bankruptcy fee of £400 or £700 or whatever it is.

    So if she's got some property that they can get off her then possibly some or all of the debt will be recouped. So if she's got a property then she'll have the nuisance and sadness of having it sold off over her head. So that is her being penalised - a bit. But not much. Probably worth the risk for £174k. She'll just go and live somewhere else, won't she. Won't make much difference to her, will it.

    However, if she hasn't got any assets as such and, for instance, if she's only renting or staying with family or friends or at someone else's place, or has got her assets hidden, such as signing them over to a relative or friend or acquaintance, and or keeping them offshore, or some diamonds buried in a hole in the ground etc then she's quids in.

    Crime pays in Failed Britain. Fill yer boots everyone, it's free money for all! So just keep your assets hidden or don't have any and you can nick as much as you like with impunity, virtually no punishment at all. There's no debtors prison in UK and only very slack mostly negligent, incompetent, failed government, police, justice system and HMRC - it's wide open, easy peasy.

    So my interpretation of this is that it's not a warning, in fact here you're publicising the fact that it's easy to steal large amounts of money and quite likely get away with it with little or no punishment. Quite the reverse of your intended message.

    The worst that happens to you if you get caught is that you might have to pay off some of it, if you've got a visible asset they can seize such as property. And that's it. Nothing else. No debtors prison, not even for six figure tax evasion as in this instance. Not even three months in prison, not even three days in prison. No prison at all. No transportation to the colonies. No being put in the stocks for people to throw stones and rotten fruit at you, no flogging or hanging, drawing and quartering and head on a stick. No breaking rocks in the hot sun on the chain gang for twenty years. Not even for ten minutes. Nope, no punishment, hardly at all!
    Last edited by bangersnmash; 03-05-2012 at 8:57 PM.
  • ListysDad
    There is also another serious problem lurking in the shadows of self employment...

    Traditionally, as a self employed person, the accountants role is to minimise your income in order to minimise tax liability. However, when you now need to re-mortgage or get a mortgage that whole system works against you as your provable income will have dropped to the point where you can't apparently afford the shoes you stand in!

    I've no idea whether the treasury have been very clever or its simply fate, but in future if the self employed need a mortgage they will need to start taking more from their businesses and as a consequence start paying much more tax...
    All together now, "Always look on the bright side of life..."
    • paulfoel
    • By paulfoel 24th Jan 13, 12:56 PM
    • 5,548 Posts
    • 2,570 Thanks
    Glad Miquita Oliver has been made bankrupt though. Would have been better if she'd been jailed though.

    Don't feel sorry for her. This woman earned £1/2 million quid, couldn't be bothered to find out about tax and spent the lot. Now she faces the consequences.

    There are families throughout britain who legally pay tax all year. Even self-employed people who are struggling manage to sort it all out properly but this woman lives the life of riley using money thats not hers....
    Cymru am Byth !!!
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