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  • FIRST POST
    • Former MSE Helen
    • By Former MSE Helen 30th Jan 12, 12:03 PM
    • 2,324Posts
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    Former MSE Helen
    MSE News: Applications for 2012 uni starters falls, as tuition fees set to rise
    • #1
    • 30th Jan 12, 12:03 PM
    MSE News: Applications for 2012 uni starters falls, as tuition fees set to rise 30th Jan 12 at 12:03 PM
    This is the discussion thread for the following MSE News Story:

    "Applications for those hoping to start uni under the new higher tuition fees system are down compared to last year ..."

Page 1
  • Derivative
    • #2
    • 30th Jan 12, 12:26 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Jan 12, 12:26 PM
    This is essentially the reason why tuition fees were raised.

    I don't think the Conservatives share Labour's vision of 100% participation in HE.

    Whether it's a good thing or not comes down to personal opinion.
    Last edited by Derivative; 30-01-2012 at 12:29 PM.
    Said Aristippus, “If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.”
    Said Diogenes, “Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.”
  • melancholly
    • #3
    • 30th Jan 12, 12:39 PM
    • #3
    • 30th Jan 12, 12:39 PM
    last year will have had a lot of extra applications as students who would normally have taken gap years will have got in before the fee rise. mature sudents thinking about whether to do to uni will also have taken the plunge a year earlier. there is always a jump in applications before a fee increase and therefore the year on year percentage shows a drop. this has been a massive fee hike so the drop will be greater.

    it isn't possible to say that this means anything yet. with previous fee increases/rises, everything normalised fairly quickly. after a couple of years we'll know whether this is a statistical blip or the start of a decline in uni applications. all the discussion in the press today seems to take over extrapolating to a new level!
  • 2 cups of coffee
    • #4
    • 30th Jan 12, 1:33 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Jan 12, 1:33 PM
    Not at all surprising - as a parent of one child who started last year instead of doing a gap out of financial fear.
    I wonder how big the swing is to NHS funded courses where the tuition fees are paid? Would be sad if students are taking these courses for no other reason than to get a degree.

    However as my 21-year old, who has lived independently for the last 3 years and is due to start Uni on an NHS course this year has found out to her horror the application procedure online is ridiculous!. The idea is to prove that she has supported herself and earned enough money to demonstrate that but the form dictates that she has to have either worked or claimed benefits for the whole 36 months! So it appears that if you choose to work your socks off 7 days a week for 4 months you are not allowed a month off?

    Has anyone else any experience of this? It is unlikely you would know the ins and outs unless you have tried to go through the online process - bring back the paper form I say!

    Confused and in need of caffeine
    • amiehall
    • By amiehall 30th Jan 12, 2:53 PM
    • 1,353 Posts
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    amiehall
    • #5
    • 30th Jan 12, 2:53 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Jan 12, 2:53 PM
    I have claimed independent status from student finance. All I had to do was send 3 P60s in to them. There's no actual proving of where you worked when or anything like that. It did ask me to list where I worked on the online form I filled out but in the end, the years I had the best evidence for weren't the ones I listed on there so I'm not sure they even looked at that.

    At the end of the day, they wanted 3 P60s showing earnings of over £7.5k and not much else.... I'd presume the NHS application would have a similar income requirement.

    Having not filled out an NHS bursary form, is it actually asking for evidence of how long you worked where because I have no idea how anyone would provide that.... Who keeps every payslip from a job you had 4 years ago? That's why I'm pretty sure they'd have an income level and accept the year if earnings are over that level.
    • kayr
    • By kayr 30th Jan 12, 4:37 PM
    • 131 Posts
    • 255 Thanks
    kayr
    • #6
    • 30th Jan 12, 4:37 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Jan 12, 4:37 PM
    This is just anecdotal but according to people we know working in admissions at one large, non-RG university, applications for courses such as medicine were at the same level as previous years but for courses like the oft mentioned "Media Studies" applications were down around 40%. This was a few weeks ago however.
  • Oldernotwiser
    • #7
    • 30th Jan 12, 5:59 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Jan 12, 5:59 PM
    This is just anecdotal but according to people we know working in admissions at one large, non-RG university, applications for courses such as medicine were at the same level as previous years but for courses like the oft mentioned "Media Studies" applications were down around 40%. This was a few weeks ago however.
    Originally posted by kayr
    Every cloud.....
    • callum9999
    • By callum9999 30th Jan 12, 6:14 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
    • 2,408 Thanks
    callum9999
    • #8
    • 30th Jan 12, 6:14 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Jan 12, 6:14 PM
    I think it's fairly obvious this is largely because applications increased the year before and not because people are "scared" of the fees. A more apt comparison would surely be against 2010.

    And my personal belief is that if people aren't capable of very basic financial planning and comprehension, then they should really be questioning whether university is right for them in the first place...
  • 2 cups of coffee
    • #9
    • 30th Jan 12, 7:09 PM
    • #9
    • 30th Jan 12, 7:09 PM
    I have claimed independent status from student finance. All I had to do was send 3 P60s in to them. There's no actual proving of where you worked when or anything like that. It did ask me to list where I worked on the online form I filled out but in the end, the years I had the best evidence for weren't the ones I listed on there so I'm not sure they even looked at that.

    At the end of the day, they wanted 3 P60s showing earnings of over £7.5k and not much else.... I'd presume the NHS application would have a similar income requirement.

    Having not filled out an NHS bursary form, is it actually asking for evidence of how long you worked where because I have no idea how anyone would provide that.... Who keeps every payslip from a job you had 4 years ago? That's why I'm pretty sure they'd have an income level and accept the year if earnings are over that level.
    Originally posted by amiehall
    Thank-you Amiehall this is encouraging; having seen the download form from previous years it seems that there is room for movement however the inflexible online version prevents continuing unless there are 36 months accounted for by company worked (and proof tick) or claiming unemployment.
    She made two calls to the helpline who simply told her if she couldn't prove it as it was stated she had to be assessed on parental income. Not helpful or understanding at all.
    She has clearly survived as we have not helped her so it is all bonafide - it seems that she'd have been given more credibility if she'd claimed benefits for 3 years!
    I'm afraid I see this as another example of our system helping those who DONT help themselves
  • 2sides2everystory
    The figures don't mean much at the moment. The real crunch will come when students decide whether to commit to a huge loan.

    Willetts looks washed up.

    Where's the centralised info on higher level apprenticeships, please ?
    • The One Who
    • By The One Who 30th Jan 12, 9:21 PM
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    The One Who
    The real crunch will come when students decide whether to commit to a huge loan.
    Originally posted by 2sides2everystory
    What percentage of students actually have a choice in whether or not to take out the loan? The fact is that for the vast majority, student loans will be the only way to finance their degree. I'm all for people taking a year or two out to help finance it and to settle in their own minds what they want, as well as looking into other avenues, but for the majority a loan will be the only option.

    But, yes, pretty much what Melancholly said.
  • 2sides2everystory
    What percentage of students actually have a choice in whether or not to take out the loan?
    Originally posted by The One Who
    That is exactly my point. We will not know the effect of the new tuition fees until students actually commit to taking the money.

    Up to that point they may still go through all the motions of getting accepted on a course and being offered a loan but they could kick the whole thing into touch at the very latest stage and I am sure many will.

    So, if I might ask my earlier question again, because life is about choices not forced outcomes, and in the name of proper communication with these poor students i.e. more or less all of them:
    1. Where is the centralised information for UK higher level apprenticeships, please? Ah thanks ONW ... you are ahead of me.
    2. Could someone please detail the point / date of no return in deciding when to cancel acceptance of a UCAS offer / and SLC loan if the loan is ultimately too scarey to take on?
    Last edited by 2sides2everystory; 30-01-2012 at 9:44 PM.
  • Oldernotwiser

    Where's the centralised info on higher level apprenticeships, please ?
    Originally posted by 2sides2everystory
    Google is your friend.

    http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/employers/the-basics/higher-apprenticeships.aspx

    http://www.connexions-tw.co.uk/higher-level-apprenticeships/

    http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1087239283&type=RESOURCES
    • amiehall
    • By amiehall 31st Jan 12, 2:14 AM
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    • 1,609 Thanks
    amiehall
    There is no real point of no return, what do you think they're going to do, come round your house and drag you to university if you decide you don't want to go....?
    • thegoodman
    • By thegoodman 31st Jan 12, 7:04 AM
    • 1,219 Posts
    • 217 Thanks
    thegoodman
    Reading the posts it seem many people don't know the system at all, stuck with going on about uni fee / loan. How I am not going to uni due to loan etc.
  • melancholly
    data from this year :
    http://www.ucas.co.uk/about_us/media_enquiries/media_releases/2012/20120130

    data from 2008-2011 (in tables at end on page 32):
    http://www.ucas.co.uk/documents/endofcyclereport.pdf

    only looking at uk applicants:
    2008 502,461
    2009 544,285
    2010 586,821
    2011 589,350
    2012 506,388

    so the drop hasn't gone back to below 2008 figures.....

    and just for comparison, these are the acceptance rates for the same years (uk only applicants, obviously don't know for 2012 yet):
    2008 80.6%
    2009 78.1%
    2010 72.4%
    2011 73.2%

    just eye balling the figures as a general overview, there are still more applicants than places! i'm sure there will be institution specific and subject specific problems, but as a whole, i'm not sure why the hysteria.

    (and it make be geeky, but that's quite an interesting report imo!)
  • 2sides2everystory
    There is no real point of no return, what do you think they're going to do, come round your house and drag you to university if you decide you don't want to go....?
    Originally posted by amiehall
    Now that I am afraid indicates a certain contempt for students who really want to know how their options lie.

    My eldest like everyone else had to achieve a UCAS deadline in order not to be considered a late applicant.

    He has received conditional offers.

    He hasn't applied for a student loan yet but he will (when SLC get their finger out and get the online application system working).

    Having applied for a loan, he will then no doubt receive the offer of a loan and will firm up his preferred course, and firming up an offer of accommodation I guess and confirming the university and course to the SLC.

    Then comes the wait to see if the grades are obtained, and assuming they are then the final date in mind for starting the course will be the registration day at the university.

    At what point is SLC Loan money paid to the University, and what typically are the cancellation penalties after registration day?

    At what point does a cancellation become a withdrawal and if there is money owed, can it be paid in one hit?

    My simplified questions are about real choice, not corralling of sheep.

    In this respect if anyone could link to a published timeline of this kind for prospective 2012 students then I would be grateful.
  • melancholly
    At what point is SLC Loan money paid to the University, and what typically are the cancellation penalties after registration day?

    At what point does a cancellation become a withdrawal and if there is money owed, can it be paid in one hit?

    My simplified questions are about real choice, not corralling of sheep.
    Originally posted by 2sides2everystory
    you have to register as a student for all the funding to kick in. until you've registered with the university, no money changes hands and you can't get your loan until the uni has confirmed attendance.

    to use your terms, a 'withdrawal' happens after registering on the course. a 'cancellation' happens before turning up to register. it gets more complicated when students drop out part way through the year, because the fees need paying but you aren't entitled to the loans.

    as ever, google is your friend ('student loans dropping out' brings up a world of information). this website was the top link on my search:
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/How_Dropping_Out_Will_Affect_Your_Finances
    it will change for 2012 but the principles should be the same.

    as ever, the best place to find the information is in the T&Cs of the loans, where this will all be clarified. between reading the T&Cs and using google, this information is there on a plate for anyone who is prepared to put in minimal effort.
  • melancholly
    Good morning everyone,

    I do hope I have the correct forum thread for my enquiry. This is my first posting so please be lenient.

    My daughter is due to start university next year and I am having a slight personal debate on how to fund her. On one hand I completely detest the idea of her graduating with thousands of pounds of debt and as such I am tempted to offer to pay all of her tuition fees and costs myself. On the other hand I worry that if I do this she will not learn the true value of money by never experiencing the concerns of having debts.

    I would thoroughly welcome your thoughts on this matter and am eager to hear from as many parents and students as possible.

    Many thanks
    Originally posted by George S
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3499355

    this thread is probably a good place to start. lots of debate on it there!
    • The One Who
    • By The One Who 31st Jan 12, 10:44 AM
    • 2,368 Posts
    • 2,924 Thanks
    The One Who
    At what point is SLC Loan money paid to the University, and what typically are the cancellation penalties after registration day?

    At what point does a cancellation become a withdrawal and if there is money owed, can it be paid in one hit?
    Originally posted by 2sides2everystory
    Fees are paid to the university after matriculation. The university needs to confirm that you are attending, and then they will get paid the fees. So if you decide to withdraw your application prior to matriculating nothing gets paid.

    I'm not too sure on if the rules for withdrawal and "false starts" will be the same in 2012 as they are just now, perhaps Taiko can clarify. The current system is that after you have matriculated and the fees have been paid, it would become a withdrawal. But how this effects future funding depends on when you decide to withdraw. If it is before November, it is classed as a "false start" and it doesn't really effect future funding at all. However, my understanding is that grant money has to be paid back for the months that you are no longer attending.

    If you decide that you want to carry on at university, but no longer want the student loan, then that will be a totally different matter. I think that would be in the realms of early repayment.
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