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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Guy
    • By MSE Guy 7th Nov 11, 2:13 PM
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    MSE Guy
    MSE News: Government responds to compulsory financial education petition
    • #1
    • 7th Nov 11, 2:13 PM
    MSE News: Government responds to compulsory financial education petition 7th Nov 11 at 2:13 PM
    This is the discussion thread for the following MSE News Story:

    "It wants money lessons but won't commit to compulsory teaching, in what's been described as "political waffle" ..."

Page 1
    • neas
    • By neas 7th Nov 11, 2:24 PM
    • 3,673 Posts
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    neas
    • #2
    • 7th Nov 11, 2:24 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Nov 11, 2:24 PM
    I think calling it waffle is a little rude to be honest. Not to go against the grain. We reached 100k signatures, well done it will be debated and then if a good idea will be done.

    Otherwise any viral campaign could get things through, doesn't gurantee it becomes formal just getting to 100k. Sorry to be negative but sometimes Martin comes out with the funniest of statements
    • N.I.M
    • By N.I.M 7th Nov 11, 2:54 PM
    • 2,248 Posts
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    N.I.M
    • #3
    • 7th Nov 11, 2:54 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Nov 11, 2:54 PM
    Hate to say it but 100,000 people called for a debate on the EU and while it got a debate the vote showed no real political will to listen to the people (for the record I'm neither Euro skeptic nor supporter) but there really seems to be an appetite for a vote on where people stand on this european beast which is so changed from what they signed up for.

    I'll be shocked if this, or any other 100,000 person petition gets anything changed.
    This was 6 months out of date so I've changed it.
    • callum9999
    • By callum9999 7th Nov 11, 3:12 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
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    callum9999
    • #4
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:12 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:12 PM
    Hate to say it but 100,000 people called for a debate on the EU and while it got a debate the vote showed no real political will to listen to the people (for the record I'm neither Euro skeptic nor supporter) but there really seems to be an appetite for a vote on where people stand on this european beast which is so changed from what they signed up for.

    I'll be shocked if this, or any other 100,000 person petition gets anything changed.
    Originally posted by N.I.M
    The trouble is, at the end of the day, most people are incompetent in running a country. Hence why demonstrations, petitions etc. on big matters (like the EU) are generally ignored.

    This petition is for a small change though - so they should be more receptive to it. Even though I'm not convinced financial education will do much (the people who want to know either do or will find out independently - the people who don't won't pay attention, on the whole), it's a step in the right direction.
    • atypical
    • By atypical 7th Nov 11, 3:23 PM
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    atypical
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:23 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:23 PM
    I think calling it waffle is a little rude to be honest.
    Originally posted by neas
    I don't think it's rude to call if 'waffle'. The OED definition is "lengthy but vague or trivial talk or writing". I think that's a good description of the Government response.

    The first paragraph is simply to fill space. They are statements no one will disagree with.

    The remaining paragraph talks about PSHE which is irrelevant to the petition: "Make financial education a compulsory part of the school curriculum".
    • SewerSide
    • By SewerSide 7th Nov 11, 3:29 PM
    • 121 Posts
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    SewerSide
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:29 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:29 PM
    Government responds to compulsory financial education petition

    - No, says Government.
    • bexster1975
    • By bexster1975 7th Nov 11, 3:55 PM
    • 1,377 Posts
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    bexster1975
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:55 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 11, 3:55 PM
    I'm sorry, but to call it other than waffle is simply inaccurate. No surprise there, 90% of MPs waffle about 90% of the time!

    It is also important to consider that it is not really in the Governments economic interests to have a well-educated and financially literate population. Banks profit, in the main, by peoples poor financial decision making (extreme circumstances and mortgages excepting). No banks profits, no tax to Government.
    • bigbloke45
    • By bigbloke45 7th Nov 11, 4:01 PM
    • 2,023 Posts
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    bigbloke45
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 11, 4:01 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 11, 4:01 PM
    I've spent a lifetime working in financial services, the last 20 odd years dealing with pensions/schemes. Most people I have met have not been very interested in saving for retirement and those who were showed a shocking lack of knowledge. The scary thing being that, apart from the value of your home, the only asset that should be paid most attention to is the value of your pension fund. If you don't own a home then your pension fund value and how you build it up is the MOST important exercise you can do plus insuring your life in case the grim reaper comes along before your pension planning is completed!

    Understanding all of the other financial things of life is also very important; banking, loans, credit cards, life assurance etc. Does this government not understand that an educated electorate could save them a fortune in social service costs?

    But, sadly, I don't think that it should be left to teachers on their own, in case they put the wrong spin on things. I would hate to think that kids are being educated about finances by some left wing anti-bank, anti-capitalist who just wants to peddle their own agenda under the guise of financial education.
    • Dorastar
    • By Dorastar 7th Nov 11, 6:13 PM
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    Dorastar
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 11, 6:13 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 11, 6:13 PM
    At the moment though we have children who see money coming out of a hole in the wall with no consequences, cards that allow you to get anything, anytime, anywhere. My own children know that we plan menus, save up for things and have long term financial plans whereas most of the children I work with think I am poor because I only have one tv yet I know for a fact many of them have little to eat at home.

    Yes financial education about pensions, credit, mortgages etc but we have much more of the basics to cover first, and not just with the children.

    Am not sure if that makes me a loony left-wing teacher, but tbh the only people who have come into school voluntarily to 'talk' about money have all come in with bank goodies to give away - children are so easily bribed with balloons and pens, so I know who I'd prefer to be doing the talking.
    Mr T 11420 Bank 1100 Mortgage 160,000
    Emergency Fund 1000 Blanket squares 33/60
    3monthfund 6242/4737
  • hermante
    The trouble is, at the end of the day, most people are incompetent in running a country. Hence why demonstrations, petitions etc. on big matters (like the EU) are generally ignored.
    Originally posted by callum9999
    I hope you meant to include the current and previous governments in the "most people". I'm sure Gaddafi thought he ran Libya pretty well, and most of the people celebrating on the streets would be incompetent too...
    • geoffky
    • By geoffky 7th Nov 11, 7:08 PM
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    geoffky
    rude to call it waffle!!!!! i would of called it a load of vested interest crap...They will not want to upset the paymasters who have them all in their pockets..lords of the universe my !!!.. bankers and politicians are of the same ilk...
    It is nice to see the value of your house going up'' Why ?
    Unless you are planning to sell up and not live anywhere, I can;t see the advantage.
    If you are planning to upsize the new house will cost more.
    If you are planning to downsize your new house will cost more than it should
    If you are trying to buy your first house its almost impossible.
  • tagq2
    Most people I have met have not been very interested in saving for retirement
    Originally posted by bigbloke45
    Most people entering the workplace since WW2 were of the understanding that you pay your NICs toward pension in retirement. The only people "not very interested in saving for retirement" are those who want to avoid or evade NICs, or who don't want to work much before state pension age.

    Micro-economics is a reasonable thing to study in school, if a bit wishy-washy. Inculcating you with the desire to work within the system in the Official way is the stuff of regimes less free than this one. Anyway, if we want to make a killing, we have two necessary and sufficient lessons for success for which we thank Getty and Brannan:

    (i) If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem;
    (ii) During a gold rush, sell shovels.

    Real work is so... early '70s.
    • Pincher
    • By Pincher 7th Nov 11, 11:02 PM
    • 6,516 Posts
    • 2,491 Thanks
    Pincher
    What about making English and Mathematics compulsory subjects, too?

    They already are? So how come there are so many illiterate and innumerate people out there?

    As the M5 pile up shows, most people are really not equipped mentally to deal with modern life. Whether it was fog or smoke, they will tailgate so they didn't have a chance to react. You can put everyone through a COMPULSORY tailgating training course, they will be leaving the car park with a mobile phone in one hand, complaining what a waste of time it was.

    I also wonder what this hypothetical financial education teacher will say to this question:

    Pupil: "Miss, miss, how do they set up an annuity when you give them the 100,000?"
    Miss Moneypenny: "They buy government bonds with the 100,000, which will pay a fixed interest every six months."
    Pupil: "But what if the government runs out of money, and can't pay the interest any more. You know, like Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal?"
    Miss Moneypenny: "Then the insurance company has to pay out from their own money."
    Pupil: "But they can't pay out forever, can they?"
    Miss Moneypenny: "Don't worry, the governement will bail them out."
    Pupil: "But the government is the one that ran out of money, Miss."
    • Caddyman
    • By Caddyman 8th Nov 11, 8:15 AM
    • 338 Posts
    • 218 Thanks
    Caddyman
    Financial Education
    I mentioned this in a previous thread concerning this very subject some time back, but in 1982, I with about 10 of my peers were taken out mainstream maths at my Comprehensive school because we just couldn't handle the mumbo jumbo of the wider math syllabus. What we got, was a full two year, comprehensive instruction in financial management. I left school at 16 with no qualifications other than an English 'O' level and the superb teachings of a top quality maths tutor in how to manage my money.

    I consider myself hugely lucky. I have never been out of work and I have no financial problems whatsoever (I put this down solely to the efforts of my tutor all those years ago and my own self restraint in not living beyond my means). Put simply, financial education works and imho, every child should receive the benefit of it.
    • oldvicar
    • By oldvicar 8th Nov 11, 10:25 AM
    • 1,068 Posts
    • 944 Thanks
    oldvicar
    I was surprised by the article - I had (obviously wrongly) presumed that the campaign was to get financial education to be automatically included as part of the PSHE agenda - ie something useful but without examination/qualification at the end.

    Perhaps what is needed is more "applied mathematics" within the maths curriculum. Not just sums for the sake of them but at the starter level things like "how many first class stamps can you buy for 3" .... and "how much change would you get". Leading up to "If a person earns x, and inflation is y% per year, etc etc, how big a pension pot will they need to retire on half wages at age 85" ... "and what proportion of salary do they need to save each year if they stat saving aged 30" etc..
  • Deepfatfriar
    I agree with the above post.

    When I left school I knew how to calculate simple interest and compound interest by hand, there were no calculators.

    In my view such education for MP's should mandatory. How many of them have actually had a proper job and had to budget on a fixed and possibly declining income ?

    How on earth can Danny Alexander be Chief Secretary to the Treasury when all he has really done is be Press Officer to the Cairngorm National Park.

    Our country is highly in debt thanks to ill informed and even iller equiped politicians.

    Who could not calculate the impact of removing the 10% tax rate. It was not school kids but MP's including Balls.

    Our country is in dire straits yet we can borrow over 7 Billion per annum to give away.

    Sorry Miss says little Charlie , I am know I already owe you loads but can I borrow a lot more to give to my mate !!!!

    Gordon Brown , possibly the worst Chancellor never had a real job yet fiddled and burned over the Treasury books with the demonstrable results.
    • The One Who
    • By The One Who 8th Nov 11, 1:03 PM
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    The One Who
    Calculating interest is already part of maths, at least it was in my school. It comes under the 'percentages' lessons, I think. Maths already uses so-called practical examples as a way to try to get people thinking about the application of what they know.

    My problem with this campaign is that it's all well and good to have an idea, but if you don't know how you can implement it without having a detrimental effect on everything else it's going to fail. Schools are expected to teach everything now, and the core subjects are suffering with some either being merged with others or getting done away with entirely.
  • Oldernotwiser
    I cannot understand the point of financial education when at least half of any group won't even understand (much less be able to calculate!) basic percentages. Improve maths education rather than adding a separate subject.
  • Jilly Stevens
    I think calling it waffle is a little rude to be honest. Not to go against the grain. We reached 100k signatures, well done it will be debated and then if a good idea will be done.

    Otherwise any viral campaign could get things through, doesn't gurantee it becomes formal just getting to 100k. Sorry to be negative but sometimes Martin comes out with the funniest of statements
    Originally posted by neas
    Martin comes up with funny statements?! None so 'funny' (peculiar, not ha-ha) as considering it 'rude' to describe political waffle as... well, political waffle. Which is what this statement is.

    That this government is completely out of touch with reality is revealed by the mention of the responsibility of parents to educate their children in matters financial. Have they no idea how ignorant of personal finance matters are many of those very parents? I despair.

    Let's hope that our continued pressure and support from key people within both Houses of Parliament will not only force a debate but also lead to the necessary introduction of compulsory pf education for young people.

    At the same time, perhaps the debate might educate those MPs and others who are unaware of how little 'ordinary' people know - because they have not had any pf education in the past: vicious circles.

    The introduction of compulsory pf education is such a good idea because one spin off is that by educating the children, it sometimes gets useful information/advice to the parents.

    Let's continue this campaign. We'll succeed in the end.
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