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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Guy
    • By MSE Guy 28th Oct 11, 11:53 AM
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    MSE Guy
    MSE News: Solar subsidies to be slashed under government plans
    • #1
    • 28th Oct 11, 11:53 AM
    MSE News: Solar subsidies to be slashed under government plans 28th Oct 11 at 11:53 AM
    This is the discussion thread for the following MSE News Story:

    "Solar panel gains will plummet for people who install after 11 December, under government plans announced today ..."


    Last edited by MSE Guy; 31-10-2011 at 11:50 AM.
Page 1
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 28th Oct 11, 12:36 PM
    • 27,864 Posts
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    Cardew
    • #2
    • 28th Oct 11, 12:36 PM
    • #2
    • 28th Oct 11, 12:36 PM
    Copy of leaked paper in these threads:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3575801

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3575765
  • bignanny
    • #3
    • 28th Oct 11, 1:44 PM
    • #3
    • 28th Oct 11, 1:44 PM
    Last night we had a quote for PV panels and the rep was very concerned when he heard about the leaked news on reduced feed-in tariff ( I don't know if that was the correct term used). He said that he expects the take up of the Solar voltaicic panels would be seriously reduced and that home generation of electricity would not continue to rise
    • magyar
    • By magyar 28th Oct 11, 2:11 PM
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    magyar
    • #4
    • 28th Oct 11, 2:11 PM
    • #4
    • 28th Oct 11, 2:11 PM
    Last night we had a quote for PV panels and the rep was very concerned when he heard about the leaked news on reduced feed-in tariff ( I don't know if that was the correct term used). He said that he expects the take up of the Solar voltaicic panels would be seriously reduced and that home generation of electricity would not continue to rise
    Originally posted by bignanny
    He's right, it would - and that's a good thing.

    It is utterly, utterly wrong that at a time when there are millions of people in fuel poverty that those people should be subsidising rich people to get a 10% return on their investment.
    Says James, in my opinion, there's nothing in this world
    Beats a '52 Vincent and a red headed girl
    • HalloweenJack
    • By HalloweenJack 28th Oct 11, 2:58 PM
    • 614 Posts
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    HalloweenJack
    • #5
    • 28th Oct 11, 2:58 PM
    • #5
    • 28th Oct 11, 2:58 PM
    as i said in the other thread - is there any idication of the fit for 50kw systems? will that be reduced?
    • wymondham
    • By wymondham 28th Oct 11, 5:46 PM
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    wymondham
    • #6
    • 28th Oct 11, 5:46 PM
    • #6
    • 28th Oct 11, 5:46 PM
    It would be a shame to halt the march to solar generation just as it started. I've never seen so many panels on roofs than the last 6 months or so. Whatever the reason for it, and whatever the home owner is getting from it, it is a good thing which should be encouraged.......
    • HalloweenJack
    • By HalloweenJack 28th Oct 11, 6:06 PM
    • 614 Posts
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    HalloweenJack
    • #7
    • 28th Oct 11, 6:06 PM
    • #7
    • 28th Oct 11, 6:06 PM
    yes but the entire reason for cutting the FIT is because of the venture capalists cashing in on the `free money` the scheme is offering - it was never intended for a handful of people to earn massive from it , but as an incentive for home owners to go green(er) and save money and earn a little from the investment.


    so the only people who can complain are those who hoped to cash in on the scheme - theres a petition calling for the FIT to be kept for home owners as it is , but lowered for rent a roof companies; that way its a win win.
    • magyar
    • By magyar 28th Oct 11, 6:16 PM
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    magyar
    • #8
    • 28th Oct 11, 6:16 PM
    • #8
    • 28th Oct 11, 6:16 PM
    yes but the entire reason for cutting the FIT is because of the venture capalists cashing in on the `free money` the scheme is offering - it was never intended for a handful of people to earn massive from it , but as an incentive for home owners to go green(er) and save money and earn a little from the investment.


    so the only people who can complain are those who hoped to cash in on the scheme - theres a petition calling for the FIT to be kept for home owners as it is , but lowered for rent a roof companies; that way its a win win.
    Originally posted by HalloweenJack
    Nice idea but very unlikely to be workable under EU law which makes it alost impossible to 'target' subsidies.
    Says James, in my opinion, there's nothing in this world
    Beats a '52 Vincent and a red headed girl
    • chris1973
    • By chris1973 28th Oct 11, 6:23 PM
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    chris1973
    • #9
    • 28th Oct 11, 6:23 PM
    • #9
    • 28th Oct 11, 6:23 PM
    The writing was on the wall for any model which paid somebody over 40p to 'produce' energy which it then sold on to other consumers for an 'average' of 11p - 20p, where did people think the shortfall was going to come from?, of course it was always going to increase bills!.

    I'm all for using alternative ways to produce energy, but they should be limited only to the benefits which they reap in savings for the household fitting them, and not at the expense of those who can barely afford to keep warm this winter, whilst at the same time creating profits for the companies fitting the free ones.

    If Europe wants UK Households to save money by fitting them, then perhaps it should be ploughing huge amounts back into the UK, so the 'average' household can afford them, if not perhaps its time to tell them where they can shove their PV panels - ideally sidewards.

    Besides, production of Solar panels may not be as 'Green' as some would have you believe, at least not according to this report, at component manufacturing level in China, but as they say, "with each 'saving' comes a 'cost'"

    Although solar is seen as clean energy in terms of carbon emissions, the production of many components is energy intensive and polluting
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/18/chinese-solar-panel-factory-protest

    I wonder how many of these panels are even produced in factories in the UK?, thus making roll out more worthwhile?, probably very few, if any?, so not even a boost to UK manufacturing then?, how much investment has been put into the UK to produce this technology beyond salespeople seeing £ signs in commission in return for fitting imported panels, boosting the economy in other countries?

    In fact its hard to see what benefit there is to the UK and the average householder, beyond appleasing Europe and the Tree Hugging fraternity, certainly the example figures of £70 - £100 per year average in savings paid to households by the 'free' panel suppliers in return for 'free' rent of their roof for the next 25 years, will soon be swallowed up by the increases in their own energy bills in the coming years, as households with 'Free' panels still need a connection to Gas / Electricity and to heat their homes in winter using the same more traditional methods as everybody else when the output from any panels is at its lowest. Its ironic then, that the bills of these 'free' panel fitted households will also be increasing just as directly as a result of more people doing the same as them and taking advantage of the feed in tariff rates - if something isn't done to curb it!.

    Yes, I think Wind and Solar panels are great for saving individual households money on their bills, if they can afford to fit them, but ironically its the households wealthy enough to not have to worry about paying their bills, who are in a position to afford the means to reduce them!.

    At the end of the Day, the Australian Government was quick to see the link between high levels of feed in tariff payments and the increasing cost of energy bills to mainstream consumers, and acted in 2010 to reduce it from MY2011, with further reductions in 2012 and 2013, but like everything else, the UK is slow to catch on the the obvious

    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/minister/greg-combet/2011/media-releases/May/mr20110505.aspx

    Whatever the reason for it, and whatever the home owner is getting from it, it is a good thing which should be encouraged.......
    Really? at the expense of increased Fuel Poverty and the risk of pensioners and low earners choosing between heating and eating?. Perhaps in a Dickens' novel.
    Last edited by chris1973; 28-10-2011 at 6:36 PM.
    "Dont expect anybody else to support you, maybe you have a trust fund, maybe you have a wealthy spouse, but you never know when each one, might run out" - Mary Schmich
    • mo786uk
    • By mo786uk 28th Oct 11, 6:40 PM
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    mo786uk
    The weird thing is - lost of companies have popped up to offer free solar panels - if it is now not worth it - does that not mean loads of people out of a job?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 28th Oct 11, 6:42 PM
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    Cardew
    Nice idea but very unlikely to be workable under EU law which makes it alost impossible to 'target' subsidies.
    Originally posted by magyar
    I hadn't appreciated that point.

    However if a company installs say 2000 x 4kWp systems then it should be treated as 8,000kWp(8MWp) for income; in the same way as if they had installed an 8MWp solar farm.

    I cannot have 2 x 4 kWh PV systems on the roof of my house and claim twice the < 4kWp FIT rate - I get the lower 8kWp rate. Yet these firms can install thousands of systems and get the highest rate.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 28th Oct 11, 6:45 PM
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    zeupater
    Nice idea but very unlikely to be workable under EU law which makes it alost impossible to 'target' subsidies.
    Originally posted by magyar
    Hi

    Easily workable .... all it would take is a clause to define distributed assets owned by the same organisation or individual to be aggregated for FiT band classification, this would automatically bring the R-A-R installations into the 50kWp+ banding and a more appropriate payment.

    Considering the scale of installations and absence of up-front profit from sales, the R-A-R scheme operators are already benefiting from lower costs than a single purchase, therefore there should be no problem whatsoever in convincing the EU that this is nothing other than a correction of the existing system.

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • chris1973
    • By chris1973 28th Oct 11, 6:49 PM
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    chris1973
    The weird thing is - lost of companies have popped up to offer free solar panels - if it is now not worth it - does that not mean loads of people out of a job?
    Originally posted by mo786uk
    The potential loss of Jobs would be far more relevant if we had entire factories across the UK employing 100's - 1000's of people actually designing and building the panels being fitted, but as just like the Vehicle Scrappage scheme, the lions share of any economy boost is handed to other countries.

    What about the potential loss of Jobs as a result of UK Manufacturers and companies already paying an average of 10% more for Energy than similar companies in Germany (As the linked report gives as an example)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/8853665/UK-manufacturers-pay-10pc-more-for-electricity-than-German-rivals.html

    What will happen to UK Jobs if these energy prices continue to increase over rivals in other countries, won't more UK manufacturers 'do a Dyson' and just move factories and production to countries where utility and manufacturing costs are lower?. How many Jobs lost there?
    Last edited by chris1973; 28-10-2011 at 6:57 PM.
    "Dont expect anybody else to support you, maybe you have a trust fund, maybe you have a wealthy spouse, but you never know when each one, might run out" - Mary Schmich
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 28th Oct 11, 6:52 PM
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    • 13,729 Thanks
    Cardew
    The weird thing is - lost of companies have popped up to offer free solar panels - if it is now not worth it - does that not mean loads of people out of a job?
    Originally posted by mo786uk
    Yes it will.

    However it would be cheaper to employ half of them digging holes and the other half filling in the holes.

    You cannot justify retaining stupid practices kept afloat by huge subsidies on the grounds that it keeps people in employment.

    When the railways were losing £billions and getting massive subsidies, wasn't it the Railway Unions that insisted that the firemen from the bygone days of steam locamotives were kept on the footplate - otherwise they would lose their jobs?
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 28th Oct 11, 6:52 PM
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    zeupater
    .... I wonder how many of these panels are even produced in factories in the UK?, thus making roll out more worthwhile?, probably very few, if any?, so not even a boost to UK manufacturing then?, how much investment has been put into the UK to produce this technology beyond salespeople seeing £ signs in commission in return for fitting imported panels, boosting the economy in other countries? ....
    Originally posted by chris1973
    Hi

    Something that I'm always banging on about ... surprised you've missed it .... ...... anyway, on panels the UK choice is between Sharp & Romag, most decent inverters being German .....

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • mo786uk
    • By mo786uk 28th Oct 11, 6:57 PM
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    mo786uk
    Yes it will.

    However it would be cheaper to employ half of them digging holes and the other half filling in the holes.

    You cannot justify retaining stupid practices kept afloat by huge subsidies on the grounds that it keeps people in employment.

    When the railways were losing £billions and getting massive subsidies, wasn't it the Railway Unions that insisted that the firemen from the bygone days of steam locamotives were kept on the footplate - otherwise they would lose their jobs?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Indeed, but that doesnt mean the Government wouldn't - and I woudl be quite surprised if they made a decision just like that which could cause jobs havoc.

    No doubt will be big opposition from the solar companies.

    I woudl have thought any changes will be phased in.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 28th Oct 11, 6:59 PM
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    Cardew
    Whilst Sharp do employ people in Wales, they are essentially assembling Japanese goods from a Japanese firm. Do we consider a Toyota made in France or Derbyshire to be French or English?
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 28th Oct 11, 7:01 PM
    • 4,720 Posts
    • 6,359 Thanks
    zeupater
    The weird thing is - lost of companies have popped up to offer free solar panels - if it is now not worth it - does that not mean loads of people out of a job?
    Originally posted by mo786uk
    Hi

    Considering what the R-A-R operators are now paying for the systems compared to the average purchaser there's still likely to be enough for it to still be worthwhile ..... if the reduction is at the level mentioned it's likely that the biggest effect will be on the installers and wholesalers ... they'll just need to slash their (currently considerable) margins to keep consumers interested, so a considerable number will merge/fold or find something else to do or sell ....

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • magyar
    • By magyar 28th Oct 11, 7:07 PM
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    • 30,446 Thanks
    magyar
    Hi

    Easily workable .... all it would take is a clause to define distributed assets owned by the same organisation or individual to be aggregated for FiT band classification, this would automatically bring the R-A-R installations into the 50kWp+ banding and a more appropriate payment.

    Considering the scale of installations and absence of up-front profit from sales, the R-A-R scheme operators are already benefiting from lower costs than a single purchase, therefore there should be no problem whatsoever in convincing the EU that this is nothing other than a correction of the existing system.

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I don't think it's as easy as doing that. I'm not at all an expert on the FIT because I only really work with large-scale projects, but if it's anything like the RO, you have to base the qualifications upon the actual installation - you cannot refer to the 'type' of owner.
    Says James, in my opinion, there's nothing in this world
    Beats a '52 Vincent and a red headed girl
    • chris1973
    • By chris1973 28th Oct 11, 7:11 PM
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    • 814 Thanks
    chris1973
    Whilst Sharp do employ people in Wales, they are essentially assembling Japanese goods from a Japanese firm. Do we consider a Toyota made in France or Derbyshire to be French or English?
    Depends on many factors. Largely how long will it continue operations in the UK in the midst of rising costs? such as Energy which i've already mentioned.

    I used to work for a company who supplied ERF Trucks with components, they got taken over by MAN in Germany, and whilst they kept the UK assembly side going for a few years, eventually it closed with the loss of 600 Jobs, not to mention 1000's of 'unseen' others due to the knock on closure of third party UK suppliers whose business revolved around being suppliers to them.

    Cadbury's is another example.

    In short, its not a secure future working for largely foreign owned companies, which sadly now form the bulk of any remaining mainstream UK manufacturing. There is no real money involved in 'kit building'.

    I dont (personally) believe that the UK has a strong future simply by being a cheap assembly house for imported goods which arrive by the container load. The future lies in (re)creating the manufacturing levels we once had, back in the days when the UK was actually the mentor to at least one Japanese car manufacturer back in the 1960's........

    Slightly O.T I know, but relevant in the fact that maybe we need to be doing what other countries seem to do, and when an idea such as Solar Power roll out is created we need to be asking, as country, whats in it for us? rather than "are we being a martyr to it"

    On the basis of rollout of the manufacturing of the technology within the UK, I personally would believe that Solar Power was a stronger investment, not only in saving money on bills for those fortunate to be able to afford them, but also for the 'local' jobs which they would create (beyond a few salespeople and installers)

    What we really need is a workable 'green' idea which boosts manufacturing levels in the UK back to those which the car industry (as an example) once had four decades ago, when British Leyland alone, employed over 200,000 people.
    Last edited by chris1973; 28-10-2011 at 7:26 PM.
    "Dont expect anybody else to support you, maybe you have a trust fund, maybe you have a wealthy spouse, but you never know when each one, might run out" - Mary Schmich
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