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How to write letter to appeal disciplinary outcome

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  • _shel_shel
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    od244051 wrote: »
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing?

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP

    How sick you where isn't relevant. If you were off too much in line with their absence procedure they've done nothing wrong.
    Don't Buy The S*n
  • You are failing to understand what we (and your employer, I assume) are telling you. I doesn't matter what your sickness was, how often you had been not sick in the past, whether you were really sick or not, or how badly sick you were. Sickness absence policies are commonplace and they operate on only one basis - the fact that you have been off on sick leave. Full stop. Every single other thing is irrelevant.
    od244051 wrote: »
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me This isn't relevant. It has nothing to do with the reason for the warning. The warning is based purely on the fact that you were sick - not how sick you were. Telling them how bad you were has no impact at all on the outcome.
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years This is also not relevant. The sickness absence policy is based on the sickness that you have now, not the fact that you haven't had sickness before.
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing? This is not relevant. You were sick. Fine. You were absent from work as a result of sickness - that is the reason that you fell into the sickness absence policy.

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP None of that is relevant. You were off sick. That is the only thing that is relevant
    od244051 wrote: »
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter? Because that is also not relevant and because since we didn't send the letter, how would we know why it took eleven days? But it doesn't matter - there is no law that says it must be sent quicker.

    I want to try to be very clear here for you. You had an amount of time off sick that would trigger pretty much every sickness absence policy that I have ever come across. The single ten days sickness would have triggered my employers - ours is no more than 8.5 days sickness per year, unless there is a disability. The three periods of sickness would also have triggered the policy with my employers - even three one day sicknesses.

    Once a policy is triggered, and yours clearly has, and it isn't surprising that it has, there is only one possible "defence" - that they have made a mistake and you haven't had that many days off sick. You have had that many days off sick. So the warning is perfectly legal and absolutely normal - you won't find many people who work as employees here who wouldn't also have had a warning after that amount of sick leave.

    So you can appeal as much as you want but you have no grounds for appeal and you will lose. So the union won't be "very interested" in any of this because, I'm afraid, you are wrong and have totally made a storm in a teacup. These policies are intended to do one thing and one thing only. Reduce sickness absence. The answer is very simple. Don't have any more sickness absence. You may not like that. I may not like that. But it is totally and completely legal, and you are just prolonging your pain by appealing - you cannot win.
  • nicechapnicechap
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    od244051 wrote: »
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me
    . The fact I never had S&D in 15 years
    . I did struggle with talking and my cough for two days before I rang in sick. On day before, I could not stop coughing and how could I be of any use/be productive if I couldn't stop coughing?

    For my third sickness, I was given very strong medication (two lots) and made me very very sleepy. There was no way I could go to work. One of those days, I was asleep for 19 hours - not like me. The GP first time gave me nothing and it was only 10 days later he prescribed them. My time off sick would been reduced if I was able to have the medication the first time of visiting the GP

    Why would they need to go into detail? HR are not occupational health or health care professionals. You seem to think that your periods of sickness are more valid than other people’s periods of sickness - are you implying your colleagues fake their symptoms?

    The facts are you’ve had 3 periods of sickness within 12 months, your employer is saying that is unacceptable rate for the future - do you disagree? If so, why? That would be one line arguement to appeal on. There are others but nothing you’ve posted amounts to anything that would overturn their decision.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered you’ll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ‘Let’s Make it Fair!’ tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
  • nicechapnicechap
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    od244051 wrote: »
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter?

    How can strangers on the internet possibly know why it took 11 days when we know nothing about you, your employer, the investigation manager or anyone else involved. It could be down to double checking everything to prevent a successful appeal, any one involved might have been off on leave during the process, etc etc. Only your employer can answer. And if that’s the basis of your appeal, I’d suggest it would be fruitless, even as a grievance, which is what you sound to have.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered you’ll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ‘Let’s Make it Fair!’ tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
  • edited 17 November 2019 at 3:28PM
    UndervaluedUndervalued
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    edited 17 November 2019 at 3:28PM
    od244051 wrote: »
    No-one has answered this question. Why it take 11 days to get my letter?

    Possibly because you don't seem to be listening to the answers to your other questions! In any case, as "nicechap" has said, how can we possibly know!

    You have fallen victim (I am sure that is how you see it) to a tight but perfectly lawful sickness policy which the firm are quite entitled to apply even when somebody is genuinely sick.

    If they had reason to believe you were not genuinely sick then they would have taken far stronger action.

    The fact that the doctor (apparently) didn't give you suitable medication for 10 days is not in any way your employer's problem!

    Yes, some employers may be more lax in regards to sickness absence, however they are getting fewer. What you have experienced is certainly common and quite possibly becoming the norm. I can only repeat it is not in any way unlawful and I would think long and hard before "rocking the boat" and appealing unless you can clearly show that they have not followed their own procedures.
  • edited 17 November 2019 at 11:51AM
    eamoneamon
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    edited 17 November 2019 at 11:51AM
    I concur an appeal is pointless as well as a waste of everybodies time.


    The 12 months will fly by and 11+ days have already gone and note that it includes non working days as well. It may well be longer if the clock started the day you returned to work. That could be worth checking on.


    A fair number of MSE posters (me included) have triggered sickness absence procedures during our working lives. It happens and for most of us life continues as before. You have had a bad 12 months health wise the next 12 months will be different and the notice will fall of your record.
  • sportsarbsportsarb
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    Have you been treated any less favourably than other people have?

    Did they misapply any part of the sickness policy?

    I've been through three short term trigger point meetings in the past, got through them just by telling the exhaustive truth, that was relevant to that period of sickness. Was surprised to get through it three times with no warning as I know a lot of my colleagues got warnings of various sorts.

    It doesn't sound, on the face of it, that your employed is behaving unreasonably.
  • theoreticatheoretica
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    od244051 wrote: »
    The things that annoyed me with the disciplinary were:
    . Didn't go into detail over first two sicknesses. For me being in bed, bent over with pain isn't me


    Going into detail about a sickness absence seems to imply they doubt it is genuine or necessary - I would be more annoyed if they had dredged up the past, questioning it.


    While this feels very personal to you, it might be easiest for you to accept it for what it is - an impersonal and inflexible policy that has you in its grasp. Hopefully you will return to health and not have this poor luck again.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
  • sportsarb wrote: »
    H
    I've been through three short term trigger point meetings in the past, got through them just by telling the exhaustive truth, that was relevant to that period of sickness. Was surprised to get through it three times with no warning as I know a lot of my colleagues got warnings of various sorts.
    Assuming that there is no disability involved, that is quite shocking. Not least because they may as well dump the entire policy as it is worthless. These policies were introduced after tribunal findings that, in basic terms, said that it was an unfair dismissal to dismiss people for sickness unless every employee was treated in the same way and sacked for the same level of sickness. The purpose of these policies is therefore to prove the "level playing field". If even one person is treated differently it makes the entire policy invalid. The only exceptions to that would be where a specific disability related adjustment is made and agreed; or in the case of pregnancy related sickness which must not by law be counted as part of the triggers (but any other sickness would be, regardless of pregnancy).
  • od244051od244051
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    nicechap wrote: »
    How can strangers on the internet possibly know why it took 11 days when we know nothing about you, your employer, the investigation manager or anyone else involved. It could be down to double checking everything to prevent a successful appeal, any one involved might have been off on leave during the process, etc etc. Only your employer can answer. And if that’s the basis of your appeal, I’d suggest it would be fruitless, even as a grievance, which is what you sound to have.


    Those colleagues who had disciplinary meetings before got the letter either later that day or within 4 days if they had days off. Had 5 days off after the meeting - mixture of days off and annual leave and should have got it on my first day back.
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