Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

edited 12 July 2021 at 11:38AM in Green & ethical MoneySaving
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  • 1961Nick1961Nick Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »

    Time to Cancel Hinkley?
    Professor Steve Thomas
    Emeritus Professor of Energy Policy
    University of Greenwich
    September 2017
    If anyone has 30 minutes to spare this paper is an interesting read.

    If the project ever reaches fruition it'll be a miracle. The eventual cost appears to be completely unknown & the funding is a shambles.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400
    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus & 2 x US2000C Batteries - 16.8kWh
  • gefnewgefnew Forumite
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    This seems like timeshare all over again!!!
  • michaelsmichaels Forumite
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    gefnew wrote: »
    This seems like timeshare all over again!!!

    The renewable investment schemes....or Hinkley C!
    I think....
  • silverwhistlesilverwhistle Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    But as always, worth remembering that you can lose your money, hence my 'goat' joke about the African solar scheme - might be best to see it as a gift, then a pleasant surprise if you get the money back.


    Yep, like lending money to a "friend". I'd only put in what I could afford to lose, like the few token hundreds I put in to a football club some years ago which then went into administration!
  • silverwhistlesilverwhistle Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Also Abundance, where you can invest very small amounts. I'm in hydro, several PV and wind farms, and some AD too.


    Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I've had a quick browse but can't see any information on minimum investment (or maximum for that matter!).



    Any pointers?
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I've had a quick browse but can't see any information on minimum investment (or maximum for that matter!).

    Any pointers?

    Hiya. Each new project has its basic rules, so minimum's might vary, but typically they are £1 up. There have been a small number, with huge minimums, such as £90k+, but those are rare.

    Also the types of investment vary a lot, some are fixed interest, some vary depending on the generation of the scheme.

    Most of my investments are debentures, so each 3m, 6m 12m (again schemes vary) you get your interest plus capital repayment, say 1/30th if a 6 monthly return on a 15yr investment.

    Then if I need the money I can use it, or just re-invest in the same scheme or another, leading me too .....

    ..... the 'Marketplace' where investors can trade some/all of their investments commission free in short auctions. For instance under each scheme name will be a list of offers, perhaps £100 (£1,000's or just £1) with a minimum price, say £105, and you can offer to buy those. that's how I've expanded into a large number by simply bidding on lots of very small offers.

    Certainly worth joining so you can see all of this, but of course usual disclaimers apply, I'm no advisor, you can lose your money, returns are not guaranteed etc etc..

    This next bit is purely personal, and I'm sure many could argue it's garbage, but I kinda feel (hope) that I'm doing a bit more by investing in RE schemes, rather than just the usual stocks and shares, bank & B/S accounts etc etc..
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    1961Nick wrote: »
    If anyone has 30 minutes to spare this paper is an interesting read.

    If the project ever reaches fruition it'll be a miracle. The eventual cost appears to be completely unknown & the funding is a shambles.

    Shambles is a good word.

    Just to note that as the government (us) has agreed a CfD for HPC, then we are not really, kinda, sorta impacted by the costs, as they are to be borne by the developers and won't change the CfD deal.

    However, the amount of the subsidy will vary depending on the difference between the CfD strike price and the wholesale leccy price. Again worth noting that the price for the leccy won't vary, currently £102/MWh (index linked), but the subsidy element will depending on the amount of top up needed, which is the difference between the wholesale price and the strike price.

    For this reason the expected subsidy has simply gone through the roof as the NAO has steadily revised downwards its estimates of future leccy prices, each time the price is revised down, the top up naturally gets bigger and so does the subsidy element, from around £6bn initially to somewhere closer to £45bn now.

    Worth taking a look at the three NAO price estimate graphs contained in these two papers:

    Nuclear power in the UK 2016

    Page 40 shows:
    2012 estimate of prices peaking at approx £85/MWh in 2029/30.
    2015 estimate of prices peaking at approx £70/MWh in 2027.

    With the subsidy thereby rising from £6bn to £30bn.


    Hinkley Point C

    Page 39 shows:

    2016 estimate of prices peaking at approx £55/MWh through the late 20's/early 30's and then heading downwards to low £40's (all in 2016 monies).

    Sticking with 2016 monies we have a CfD of approx £95/MWh and an average wholesale price somewhere below £50/MWh, giving us a subsidy north of £45/MWh.

    Total subsidy 3,200MW x 92% capacity factor x £45 x 24hrs x 365 days x 35 years = £40bn+.

    If HPC comes on line late in the 2020's, and prices do go below £45/MWh on average, then add another £5/MWh or £4.5bn.


    Lastly, for comparison, current off-shore wind subsidies are much higher, the highest at £170/MWh (CfD Register) but CfD's have fallen steadily with each new round of funding, and the lowest/latest are for £65/MWh (v's £102/MWh for HPC 2019 monies).

    The last auction in May, with results Sep/Oct expects even lower rates, and in fact set bid caps below the £65 figure.

    Crucial to note that the drop in off-shore wind prices from around £170 to £65 has been achieved in ~10yrs, whereas nuclear has been funded already for 60yrs, and the subsidy length for RE is 15yrs v's the 35yrs for nuclear.

    And lastly, as a common counter argument to shorter RE contracts is that the nuclear will generate longer - note that that is a spin trick and complete BS. Whilst the RE schemes will of course end sooner than HPC which has a life expectancy of 40-60yrs, subsidy trajectories for RE show they are going subsidy free, so when the off-shore wind farm reaches end of life in ~20yrs, it'll be replaced subsidy free with another, so effectively we can compare 60yrs of wind to 60 yrs of nuclear and fairly compare 15yrs subsidy to 35yrs subsidy.

    Phew, time for breakfast, then muck out the kitties at the rescue, a mugs work is never done.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    I might be being a bit 'free and loose' on this issue, but I'm really not concerned as the switch to BEV's is almost unstoppable now, and battery tractors already exist, plus short range BEV trucks are a doddle.

    Just to prove I'm not blowing smoke, I thought I'd post a very well laid out response to EV myths. Whilst this is really about cars, logically applying it to higher mileage (and fuel consuming) commercial fleets, and heavy plant kinda shows how the future is BEV's, just an issue of time (and supply) now.

    Top ten reasons NOT to buy an electric vehicle (and why each one is wrong!)
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • edited 8 July 2019 at 4:19PM
    PiddlesPiddles Forumite
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    edited 8 July 2019 at 4:19PM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    HPC

    If I could be a little cheeky as a newbie here and offer some constructive criticism to the forum....:D. This is a consumer based forum generally, and engagement with this base must be to the benefit of us all. There is quite a lot of acronym usage that makes accessibility a problem and must turn people away. I know I've struggled at times. Googling acronyms is surprisingly difficult, with the results returning so many of the bloody things.

    Hope this helps.
  • edited 8 July 2019 at 4:24PM
    Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    edited 8 July 2019 at 4:24PM
    Piddles wrote: »
    If I could be a little cheeky as a newbie here and offer some constructive criticism to the forum....:D. This is a consumer based forum generally, and engagement with this base must be to the benefit of us all. There is quite a lot of acronym usage that makes accessibility a problem and must turn people away. I know I've struggled at times. Googling acronyms is surprising difficult, the results return so many of the bloody things.

    Hope this helps.

    I try to use acronyms to reduce the amount of typing, but tend to add the full wording in brackets the first time in a thread, but on this occasion due to the length of the thread things get trickier as the term has probably been used about a 1,000 times. Also the name Hinkley (scroll to the bottom of the quoted post) and Hinkley Point C are included too through the links/link titles so I honestly don't know what's best.

    I suspect I get lazy when repeating stuff, forgetting that for some/many it's the first time they may be reading it. My waffle about HPC, CfD's and the NAO's reports is sadly a repeat of something I've been saying for years, I should probably write them out better at the start, then create some filing system for myself and then just quote the text ...... but I did mention I was lazy. :D

    Oh, and as always if you don't understand an acronym, remember ...... GIYF.

    PS - You have a point. A right click and "search Google for HPC" gave me nothing on Hinkley Point C, but loads of links to high performance computing .......... don't they care about the environment, will no-one think of the children ....... flippin algorithms!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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