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Insurance cancelled due to faulty blackbox (RESOLVED)

edited 23 June 2019 at 9:12PM in Insurance & Life Assurance
35 replies 4.8K views
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  • nick74nick74 Forumite
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    prowla wrote: »
    My new car has speed limit sensors and even shows the speed limit on the windscreen.


    However, there have been a number of times where it has missed signage.


    Based on that, I would be reluctant to trust the technology for any official/insurance purposes.

    The type of setup your car has will actually read the speed limit signs as you pass them, whereas insurance black boxes use a combination of GPS and mapped speed limit data, so quite different technology.

    However, my concern is that if they are using the same speed limit data as satnavs, it is sometimes seriously inaccurate.
  • kelevrazkelevraz Forumite
    192 posts
    Would just like to point out that if you're going 31MPH in a 30, you're still technically speeding.

    I imagine you'd have a real uphill battle to effectively prove your blackbox was so out of whack that it recorded you as 'speeding' when you were at or under the limit
  • NasqueronNasqueron Forumite
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    lopsyfa wrote: »
    Exactly my point, 2 seconds after the 30mph, is only about 26 metres (at 30mph) but if the gps is out by 100m, it could show me as being 74 metres in the 30mph zone and I could well be doing close to 40mph at that time. Where did you deduce acceleration before reaching the 50mph from my statement?

    I was talking about the OP scenario most likely accelerating before the speed sign

    Sat navs / GPS black boxes are not inaccurate by 100m, you couldn't run a reliable service being that far out as it couldn't even tell which side of the motorway you were on let alone on a road running parallel with a different speed limit.

    As I said in my post, even if it was that far out, why was it not reported to the insurer that it was faulty rather than continuing to drive. If it needed a minute to find more satellites then don't drive off as soon as you turn on the car. Mine shows the number available, typically 2-5 on startup and usually 10 or so after a couple of minutes meaning high levels of accuracy
    the concept of a United States of Europe is right.” Winston Churchill 1930
    I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community...” -Winston Churchill 1961
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  • mojo1mojo1 Forumite
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    It's not uncommon for a GPS to be out by 100m. There are three primary factors that can cause it.

    1. Poor signal. Especially when signal drops in and out, or when the GPS receiver has been off for a while and not updated its internal database. The satellites send out data on their orbits but can take several minutes for the receiver to fully update, or even longer. Old data is increasingly inaccurate.

    Phones download the data over the internet so don't usually have this problem.

    2. GPS uses a model of the world that assumes it to be an ovoid, so not quite a sphere but a bit wider around the middle. In some parts of the world that model isn't all that close to reality and adds error to the position shown.

    3. Weather affects the GPS signal and can cause position drift.

    Sat navs try to hide all this using tricks like making the on-screen car stick to the nearest road, on the assumption that you probably didn't drive off into the nearest field.

    Unfortunately it means these kind of black box devices are pretty unreliable.
  • lopsyfalopsyfa Forumite
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    kelevraz wrote: »
    Would just like to point out that if you're going 31MPH in a 30, you're still technically speeding.

    I imagine you'd have a real uphill battle to effectively prove your blackbox was so out of whack that it recorded you as 'speeding' when you were at or under the limit

    Never argue that is not speeding but what I take objection to is the other poster assumption that if you have a system to alert you that you are slightly above the speed limit, then you must be speeding everywhere and driving without due attention. It is like saying if you use a lane assist system in a car, you must be driving randomly across the road. I didn't want to take on that poster in other not to derail this thread.
  • lopsyfalopsyfa Forumite
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    Nasqueron wrote: »
    I was talking about the OP scenario most likely accelerating before the speed sign

    Sat navs / GPS black boxes are not inaccurate by 100m, you couldn't run a reliable service being that far out as it couldn't even tell which side of the motorway you were on let alone on a road running parallel with a different speed limit.

    As I said in my post, even if it was that far out, why was it not reported to the insurer that it was faulty rather than continuing to drive. If it needed a minute to find more satellites then don't drive off as soon as you turn on the car. Mine shows the number available, typically 2-5 on startup and usually 10 or so after a couple of minutes meaning high levels of accuracy
    The OP may not be acceleration before the sign.

    There are several methods of mapping a car to the side of the motorway or road. One of this method is comparing the location of the user at more than one data points and then using the direction of the road. Once the EU system (Galileo) is ready, the accuracy should be suitable for reliable use for the black box insurance.

    I agree the OP need to report back to the insurance.
  • NasqueronNasqueron Forumite
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    mojo1 wrote: »
    It's not uncommon for a GPS to be out by 100m. There are three primary factors that can cause it.

    1. Poor signal. Especially when signal drops in and out, or when the GPS receiver has been off for a while and not updated its internal database. The satellites send out data on their orbits but can take several minutes for the receiver to fully update, or even longer. Old data is increasingly inaccurate.

    Phones download the data over the internet so don't usually have this problem.

    2. GPS uses a model of the world that assumes it to be an ovoid, so not quite a sphere but a bit wider around the middle. In some parts of the world that model isn't all that close to reality and adds error to the position shown.

    3. Weather affects the GPS signal and can cause position drift.

    Sat navs try to hide all this using tricks like making the on-screen car stick to the nearest road, on the assumption that you probably didn't drive off into the nearest field.

    Unfortunately it means these kind of black box devices are pretty unreliable.


    Modern Sat Navs are accurate to 3-10m, if the accuracy was 100m you couldn't use it reliably to do anything. OP's partner was speeding
    the concept of a United States of Europe is right.” Winston Churchill 1930
    I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community...” -Winston Churchill 1961
    “The future of Europe if Britain were to be excluded is black indeed.”[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] - Winston Churchill 1963
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
  • Uxb1Uxb1 Forumite
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    OK so to repeat by earlier post on page 1 perhaps you can explain why on occasions when going from a say 30 limit to a 40 limit my satnav is still telling me the speed limit is still 30 some 100 yards or so past the point of speed limit change?
    As a result it beeps at me to tell me I'm exceeding the speed limit as I've passed the 40 sign, am now accelerating - and no I'm not exceeding it.

    Either
    1 The sat nav thinks I'm in a different position to the one I'm actually at
    or
    2. The sat nav derived position of the location of the speed limit change is incorrect in the database.

    I think the difference between the OS mapping on their old datum of OSGB-36 compared to the idealized ellipse mentioned above of WGS84 used for satnav's is only about 35 yards in the UK.
  • wongataawongataa Forumite
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    Uxb1 wrote: »
    OK so to repeat by earlier post on page 1 perhaps you can explain why on occasions when going from a say 30 limit to a 40 limit my satnav is still telling me the speed limit is still 30 some 100 yards or so past the point of speed limit change?
    As a result it beeps at me to tell me I'm exceeding the speed limit as I've passed the 40 sign, am now accelerating - and no I'm not exceeding it.

    Either
    1 The sat nav thinks I'm in a different position to the one I'm actually at
    or
    2. The sat nav derived position of the location of the speed limit change is incorrect in the database.
    It will be option 2. The speed limit data is part of the map data. If the speed limit shown on the sat nav does not match reality then it is going to be incorrect map data. This is obvious when the local council changes the speed limit on a road but your sat nav still shows the old speed limit. This incorrect speed limit data can persist through many map updates.
  • daveyjpdaveyjp Forumite
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    You can't trust satnav speed limit data. Despite three updates mine still has long sections of the M1 as 50 limit.

    The roadworks this applied to finished a couple of years ago.
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