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CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD have filed a CCJ for old address

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  • sppc42sppc42 Forumite
    43 Posts
    Second Anniversary
    my bad, corrected that!
  • edited 1 October 2018 at 1:04AM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 1 October 2018 at 1:04AM
    That's very good IMHO, and keeps you focussed and on track for the first section, which is what you need to convince the Judge about mainly, to get the set aside.

    Some Judges want to hear about the defence and some less so, once they've decided as fact that you didn't get the claim, and acted quickly when you heard about the CCJ.

    And going armed with a costs schedule and wage slip, can't hurt, if you get a Judge who is prepared to listen and throw the claim out and award your costs on the spot (if not, push for the costs to be reserved and hand over the costs schedule for the court file, in case the Claimant discontinues).

    Best if the costs are on file as soon as possible, IMHO.

    :)
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  • sppc42sppc42 Forumite
    43 Posts
    Second Anniversary
    That's a great relief to hear! Thanks a lot for the inputs. I'll get my papers ready for tomorrow and will update back how it all went.

    cheers!
  • edited 2 October 2018 at 5:33PM
    sppc42sppc42 Forumite
    43 Posts
    Second Anniversary
    edited 2 October 2018 at 5:33PM
    I had my hearing finally couple of hours ago and am happy to say that I got the set-aside :j

    I had to wait around an hour and 15mins for my turn to come from the scheduled time. CEL did not turn up, even the usher told me in the morning that they rarely turn up. The judge had read my witness statement and said straightaway that he'll be focusing on the set-aside only and not the order dismissal. He refused to either take a copy of the Skeleton argument or me going fully through it, as he said I should have given the Skeleton argument and evidence beforehand to the usher for him to read, so he just wanted me to summarize my skeleton argument.

    I started with trying to convince him that I acted promptly, but he was already happy with that from my WS and told me that condition is already satisfied. He then asked when I moved my address and when i corrected my address with DVLA, as that was 6 months apart, he wanted me to convince him that the parking agency has error-ed somehow as they seem to have obtained the address from DVLA and have rightfully served notice to that address. I promptly replied with the FOIR from DVLA about using tracing agencies and also cited that other agencies have dutifully contacted me via the same route. Judge stopped me mid-way and said - am satisfied! Its as if he had got those points from the WS itself, but wanted to hear it out from me to make sure i understood it too.

    Also, he himself mentioned that he'll be reserving the cost, he refused to accept the Schedule of costs at this time and said as costs are reserved, it will be taken up at the final trial. He has now ordered CEL to send me all details of the case within 28 days and further 14 days after that for me to file a defense, so basically 42 days in total for the paperwork.

    He, however, pointed out clearly that I need to focus on 'my' case and not the generic arguments I may have picked up from the internet, especially citing the point about 'landowner authority' as he said its obvious they won't be having it. To me that was confusing, as that a legal requirement and there are several POPLA references in this forum where this has been used as a valid argument for the appeal. Anyways, he repeatedly asked me to just focus on the points about my case and not such generic arguments. I had the following arguments in my Skeleton Arguments for order dismissal, so need to work out which ones to focus one, I think, reading from my WS, he wants me to focus on other points, like POFA non-compliance etc
    . a. Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA 2012)
    . b. Lack of adequate notice of the parking charge on clear signage, as acknowledged by the Supreme Court in the Parking Eye vs Beavis case
    . c. Unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge, in contravention to the BPA Code of Practice and established legal precedents
    . d. Claimant has no evidence of landowner authority or a legal contract, in contravention to the BPA Code of Practice
    . e. Illegal signage at alleged site from Claimant, no planning permissions for usage of ANPR and signboards


    Now time to prepare for the final defense!!

    I couldn't have done it all without the help from you guys. Thanks a lot!!!
  • edited 30 October 2018 at 12:32PM
    sppc42sppc42 Forumite
    43 Posts
    Second Anniversary
    edited 30 October 2018 at 12:32PM
    Hi,

    The its now time for me to get onto the filing of the defense.

    The court in the set-aside judgement had mentioned that CEL (Claimant) need to serve the full particulars of the claim by 29th Oct 4PM. However, I did not receive any thing yesterday (29th Oct). I have, however, just now at 11am on 30th Oct received a letter from CEL, claiming to the the full particular of the claim and has just one page of the particulars points detailed. Please note that this was not a signed delivery, it was just dropped into my mailbox. Even though the Royal mail envelope said on top 'Delivered by 29-10-18', it got delivered to me on 30th.

    Can I thus, apart from the defense, argue on this technical point that CEL did not serve the particulars of the claim to me in a timely manner as instructed by the court? Am frustrated with this CEL and their delayed responses, so is it a valid point? Because if this is the case, it can be easily argued that they might have served the original ticket also outside the time window? Whether that was a mistake of Royal Mail or CEL, it seems irrelevant to me

    Kindly let me know. I want the Judge to know and understand that these people break every technical asks from them, even when the court gave them a month to serve the particulars, they were a day late.
  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    You are unlikely to get far. The claimant is likely to get some leeway on this.
    Devote no more than one line to this in your defence
  • sppc42sppc42 Forumite
    43 Posts
    Second Anniversary
    Thanks. Couple of newbies question, before I write out my defense to be submitted. I have gone through the newbies post but did not seem to find info about this post-set-aside defense -

    1. In the set-aside, I had submitted by WS, with Skeleton Argument and all the evidence attached. Does this defence includes that, via reference or otherwise, automatically or its an entirely new submission and thus, do I need to re-write the WS, SA and this defense as 3 separate documents
    2. How verbose this defense needs to be? Do I need to re-attach all the evidences with this?
    3. Once prepared, the County court is not so far from where I live, so is it advisable to submit the paperwork in-person or send it via tracked mail?

    Kindly let me know.
  • UmkomaasUmkomaas Forumite
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    Now you're at the business end of the legal process - it's not a defense (unless they're pursuing you in the USA).

    De-Trump that and put it into the English language - defence (spot the difference?)
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
  • sppc42sppc42 Forumite
    43 Posts
    Second Anniversary
    :) yes, my bad there. The judge had also mentioned 'Defendant do file and serve his defence by 4pm 12th November'.

    Would you be able to comment on the points I raised earlier.

    Thanks
  • edited 1 December 2018 at 2:29AM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 1 December 2018 at 2:29AM
    Because if this is the case, it can be easily argued that they might have served the original ticket also outside the time window?
    Well yes but like so many people, you are thinking you have to prove the NTK was received outside day 14. But it's not a POFA PCN anyway, so it can be served late BUT can only hold an identified driver liable, and you do not know who was driving so long ago and have only just had the Particulars today.

    Hence 'no keeper liability' applies - not only because of the date the NTK arrived (late is GOOD), but also because:

    - the wording on that NTK is not compliant with para 9, AND
    - there is no evidence of 'adequate notice' of the parking charge AND
    - no evidence of any 'relevant contract/relevant obligation' (pre-requisites of POFA Schedule 4)

    ...and absent FULL compliance with ALL of the above being met (and the wording and deadlines are mandatory), there can be no keeper liability anyway.

    sppc42 wrote: »
    1. In the set-aside, I had submitted by WS, with Skeleton Argument and all the evidence attached. Does this defence includes that, via reference or otherwise, automatically or its an entirely new submission and thus, do I need to re-write the WS, SA and this defence as 3 separate documents
    No need to re-write any of it, why not just use one of the recent CEL defences on the forum (I've written two recently myself on here) and note near the top (where you adapt your own 'facts of the case') that your WS and evidence and skeleton argument produced in person at the set aside hearing and served to the absent Claimant prior to that, are repeated and your defence turns on the following points.
    2. How verbose this defence needs to be? Do I need to re-attach all the evidences with this?
    Not if the evidence was already filed (to the court) and served (to CEL). YES if it was not already 'filed and served' to both.

    3. Once prepared, the County court is not so far from where I live, so is it advisable to submit the paperwork in-person or send it via tracked mail?
    In person in a ring binder, with a contents page, and as well as the 'defence' copies of the WS and evidence (IF not already filed to the court) and a revised/potential 2nd hearing costs schedule, noting at the top that the Judge confirmed the costs are reserved and one hearing has already taken place so you will be applying for two sets of costs for loss of leave/salary, travel, parking.

    And the folder itself should have the Claim Number and 'DEFENCE' on the front, and if you have a hearing date, that as well. If not, then the Judge's name and a copy of the most recent Order at the front to show what it relates to.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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