POPLA appeal review please. Louth machine wouldn’t take money. PCN received

divebud · 30 September 2018 at 4:07PM

Hi, I’ve searched through the various threads but can’t find anything like my issue. The machine I tried to use wasn't accepting money, albeit intermittently not doing so!
I parked for around 50 minutes at a Europarks carpark. The machine wouldn’t accept my coins despite trying several times and different coins. The display said ‘out of use’or something similar. Another man was having the same trouble. I didn’t see the ridiculously high sign saying it was Anpr so left my £1 on the dash to show good intent (also no paper to write in but that would have been just as futile!) The man was then successful so I tried again but I still wasn’t. Had an appointment to go to so left the car. I have no proof that the machine wasn’t working properly although cctv would show me back and forth to car and machine. It’s a lease car so husband has the notice and as far as we can tell they have complied with required dates for sending it out (checking this tomorrow). I could really do with some advice on whether I need to state the machine was faulty at this stage or just go with one of the templates (signage about paying was clear so I’d choose a suitable template) I’d be really grateful for advice please.

Many thanks

Redx · 30 September 2018 at 4:55PM

use the template by EDNA BASHER at the foot of post #1 of the NEWBIES thread and appeal as LESSEE/HIRER/KEEPER (not as driver), so your hubby does it

no blabbing about who was driving or what happened on the day

divebud · 30 September 2018 at 6:40PM

Thanks, will do. And thank you for your constant input into helping out people like me

Much appreciated!

Coupon-mad · 1 October 2018 at 4:11PM

It’s a lease car so husband has the notice and as far as we can tell they have complied with required dates for sending it out (checking this tomorrow).

But the Notice to Hirer will not have enclosed with it, the required documents from para 13/14 of the POFA!

System · 1 October 2018 at 5:23PM

The display said ‘out of use’or something similar. Another man was having the same trouble

What did the sign say about machine failure/problems? Did it give a number to call? If it did, did you?

divebud · 1 October 2018 at 5:49PM

I didn’t see a number to call, but I didn’t specifically look. I thought it would be a person coming around so they would see my coin on dashboard. Had no idea it was Anpr controlled.

System · 1 October 2018 at 5:54PM

Are you able to go back and check the sign?

Where a contract is "frustrated" - not being given the opportunity to pay - the wording on the sign that covers that eventuality is key. And as failure to pay in a P&D car park is such a slam dunk win for the operator, it pays to have your own evidence.

The_Deep · 1 October 2018 at 6:01PM

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.
for unprofessional conduct

Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.

divebud · 1 October 2018 at 6:36PM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

But the Notice to Hirer will not have enclosed with it, the required documents from para 13/14 of the POFA!

Thank you for your reply. I’ve read those paragraphs a few times and thought they were saying that the keeper only isn’t liable if the creditors are given the details of who hired the car (i.e if that is different from the registered keeper). We aren’t going to send in driver details and the lease car company won’t know so therefore keeper is still liable? I didn’t read it as them having to send us anything apart from the notice to keeper - but I find it hard to understand the language used, so I’m sorry if I’m being dim.

divebud · 1 October 2018 at 6:41PM

IamEmanresu wrote: »

Are you able to go back and check the sign?

Where a contract is "frustrated" - not being given the opportunity to pay - the wording on the sign that covers that eventuality is key. And as failure to pay in a P&D car park is such a slam dunk win for the operator, it pays to have your own evidence.

I will go and check tomorrow, thanks for the advice and taking the time to reply. I wish I could have taken a pic of the screen when it wouldn’t let me pay as I have no other evidence! Although if they looked at the Anpr cameras pointing at the pay machines (and entrance/exit) they would see me going back and forth from machine to car!

Coupon-mad · 2 October 2018 at 1:11AM

divebud wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. I’ve read those paragraphs a few times and thought they were saying that the keeper only isn’t liable if the creditors are given the details of who hired the car (i.e if that is different from the registered keeper). We aren’t going to send in driver details and the lease car company won’t know so therefore keeper is still liable?

I didn’t read it as them having to send us anything apart from the notice to keeper - but I find it hard to understand the language used, so I’m sorry if I’m being dim.

Yes the PPC did have to enclose documents with the NTH:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74598852#post74598852

As the vehicle in question is a hire vehicle, the operator has exercised its rights under section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA 2012). Section 4 of PoFA 2012 refers to the operators’ right to claim unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. This is subject to paragraph 13 of PoFA 2012, relating to hire vehicles. Paragraph 13(2) states:

“The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given -

a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
b) a copy of the hire agreement;
and
c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement”

Reviewing the evidence provided to me by the operator, I cannot see that a copy of a statement signed by, or on behalf, of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement, has been provided to me either as an attachment to the notice to hirer, or separately.

As this document has not been provided to me in the body of evidence supplied by the operator, I am not able to consider that it has been provided to the appellant in accordance with the provisions set out in PoFA 2012.

As a result, I am not satisfied that the provisions set out in PoFA 2012 have been met for the purposes of transferring liability for unpaid parking charges from the keeper to the hirer of the vehicle. Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other comments or grounds of appeal raised by the appellant.

Taken from post 3112 of POPLA Decisions.

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POPLA appeal review please. Louth machine wouldn’t take money. PCN received

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