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Will they go to court or not? - Page 24

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Will they go to court or not?

edited 10 December 2017 at 1:44AM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
257 replies 15.8K views
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  • edited 12 July 2018 at 9:54AM
    rizla01rizla01 Forumite
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    edited 12 July 2018 at 9:54AM
    You click on the links that say 'here's an example Witness Statement'. If it's that hard to read a few words, why not just have the NEWBIES thread open and do 'control & F' and put in the word 'witness' and get there that way? In less than one second...
    Thanks for that CM. Never knew that. A lot easier. :)

    @Keith.
    Simply because i dont know what I am doing. Fish out of water Etc.
    Struggling to deal with this but am getting there.
    Medications do have side effects you know.

    I am really sorry if I am causing too much work for you all but I am one letter away from having dealt with it and whatever the outcome and after I have posted the results on here you will never hear from me again.
    I do have you all to thank for the time you have spent.

    I will now try to put together a Witness Statement and post that for your critique.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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  • UmkomaasUmkomaas Forumite
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    after I have posted the results on here you will never hear from me again.
    Pity, because giving the benefit of your experience to others in dealing with this scourge (as we do) would be another step in working to rid the country of this out of control money grab!
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
  • edited 12 July 2018 at 12:34PM
    rizla01rizla01 Forumite
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    edited 12 July 2018 at 12:34PM
    Hi, Umkomaas

    I didn't wish to sound ungrateful for all the work spent by you all in putting this site, so full of great info, together, but for a newcomer to the process the advice is plentiful if not, overwhelming. Like a lot of people, I go 'word blind' after a while if I cannot find what i am looking for. 'Glazed look' comes to mind.

    It is simple for those that prepared this page because they know where they put stuff but I doubt I could advise anyone else with the info on here. If I am struggling to find my way through all of the good advice given, it would be like the blind leading the blind.

    I could do more harm than good so its probably best left to those more capable than me, I think most on here would agree.

    Could you say btw, if the map of the parking area that I have shown is the sort of thing a judge would be happy to work from, in your opinion?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
  • CastleCastle Forumite
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    rizla01 wrote: »
    I also intend using this. would that be correct?

    36926443_10156601975631458_914996190607572992_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=2b7572cb8b46ea60f34aecd58d016f87&oe=5BD9C538

    With the addition of an arrow pointing to the entrance.
    If the driver followed the green route then it would have taken them through the KFC "Drive Thru"; which isn't parking.
  • QuentinQuentin Forumite
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    rizla01 wrote: »
    I am one letter away from having dealt with it …...
    If only you had sent the one letter you were advised to back in November (but inexplicably did not) in #11 by CM this thread would never have got to its 240 posts (not including the ones you deleted)!!
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    ...ParkingEye have signs talking about 'total stay'. They make the rules up, because they can. No-one stops them.

    But the POFA 2012 talks about parking events and says that a PCN can only be issued to a keeper for a 'single period of parking'. So clearly the intention of Parliament is, that liability for a parking charge relates to a single parking event.

    There are also Grace Periods to factor in, and the BPA CoP sets those out (two periods, one for arriving, finding a space, and observing the signs and deciding whether to stay, and the other at least ten minutes merely to leave).

    All explained here:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    So, if your Daughter's total stay was just 14 minutes (all told) over the 2 hours parking allowed, even if she hadn't moved the car and re-parked, the Grace periods cover her already, and PE no doubt realise this, and are chancing their arm. 5 minutes on arrival plus the mandatory ten after expiry of allowed parking time = 15 minutes non-parking activity, perfectly OK.

    I expect that's why PE want to backtrack/squeeze £60 out of her, because they are on a sticky wicket already.

    Now, on top of that grace periods argument, she can also argue two more things:

    - that the car was moved within the site, so there were two parking events (then she points to the POFA - even if she's blabbed about who was driving, IMHO she can point to the will of Parliament about PCNs relating only to single parking events, and also nothing is there about made-up 'total stays'!)

    - that circumspect, average drivers would perfectly reasonably take the ambiguous terms to mean that they can in fact park for a total of two hours, which she did not exceed. Any reference on the signs to 'total stay' is no doubt contradicted elsewhere by mention of 'parking' (check, it usually is, maybe instore/on the window or on the retailer's website?) and as such the terms are ambiguous as well as disingenuous.

    She didn't contravene 2 hours total parking, and did not accept any contract to pay £100.

    I am sure PE are looking to discontinue this one. It is winnable on Grace Periods alone, but throw in the 'moved car' and you have even more to say at any hearing (and I don't think PE want this to go in front of any Judge).
    Above is post #11 about grace periods and the fact there were in fact two parking events, not totalling over 2 hours.

    Writing the WS about this should be simple, and yes that aerial map is good.
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  • edited 12 July 2018 at 7:23PM
    rizla01rizla01 Forumite
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    edited 12 July 2018 at 7:23PM
    Here is the rough draft so far. Does this sound OK?
    Please let me have any recommendations and suggestions. Thanks
    Claim Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    BETWEEN:
    ParkingEye Ltd (Claimant)
    vs
    XXX Xxxx(Defendant)

    I am xx of xx xxx xxx, defendant in this matter.

    Firstly I apologise if my presentation is not up to the standard of the professional Companies such as Parking Eye Ltd., that make a fortune from dealing with these matters but I have done my best to present my case whilst not wishing to waste too much of the courts valuable time on largely irrelevant legalities.

    This claim is denied in its entirety. I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons, any one of which is fatal to the Claimant's case.


    I. The period of 2 Hours was not exceeded when grace periods are taken into account.

    II. The period of parking consists of two separate parking periods.

    III. The signage does not offer a contract with the motorist

    1v The parking area is not sufficiently signed leaving many large areas where signage is not in place.

    v The Claimant has no standing to bring a case


    The Greyhound car parking area consists of 4 individual car parks, all of which have always offered free parking ever since they were installed.

    Each year I take my three young girls to Matalan to kit them out with new clothing and have always parked in the safest spot where they don!!!8217;t need to negotiate traffic. This is at the very top of the car park, farthest away from the store entrance.

    On the day in question namely 19th July 2017, I entered a very busy car park are with lots of traffic in both directions as Matalan were clearing many sales items, so I proceeded towards my usual parking area and waited quite a time until a space in my usual spot was vacated. I then parked up. My girls and I left my and made our way to the store entrance.

    At no time at all, was I aware of any restricted parking signs. There is a wall that I walked along where signs could easily be affixed but there were none. There are no warning signs inside the shop.

    After about 1 ½ hours I emerged from the shop and headed to my car, the intention now being to get something to eat so proceeded to treat my girls to a KFC lunch. Once again no parking signs are visible on the way there and none whatever around the KFC restaurant area. There is a parking area on that site which makes no mention whatever of parking restrictions. After lunch we left the car park.


    I. Grace periods.

    According to the BPA Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice Control and enforcement of parking on private land and unregulated public car parks Version 7 - January 2018

    Section 13.2
    If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    Section 13.4
    You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes

    II. Two separate parking incidents.

    Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 makes it very clear that two separate parking periods cannot be treated as if they were the same parking incident which clearly occurred when I moved my vehicle to KFC and re-parked.

    Schedule 4: Section 7 Para 3:- The notice must relate only to a single period of parking

    III The signage does not offer a contract with the motorist

    1. The claim is for breach of contract. However, it is denied any contract existed.

    2. The Claimant states, in their Particulars of Claim, that the signage is !!!8216;clearly displayed!!!8217; but this is not agreed. Thus, the necessary elements of offer and acceptance to form a contract were not present. Although the Claimant has not provided a signage map in many of their car parks signs are positioned in such a way as to create !!!8216;entrapment zones!!!8217; where signage is not clearly visible. The Claimant is put strictly to proof that this is not the case on this site.

    3. The elements of offer, acceptance and consideration both ways have therefore not been satisfied and so no contract can exist.

    4. In addition to the defence that the signage does not form a contract with the driver I would point the courts attention to the photographs of the signage in the evidence pack I would suggest that the driver would not have been able to read any such sign in the seconds taken to enter the car park and that their attention would have been taken up with negotiating the safe entry to the site and not reading terms and conditions


    vI: Signage not visible and is inadequate.

    Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.
    Large areas of this parking area are totally devoid of any signs at all. Places that would make the signs immediately visible (Large clear brick wall of store for example) are not used. What signs do exist are out of sight and above prescribed heights to be easily read.


    Signage in Car Park
    1. In addition to the defence that the signage does not form a contract with the driver I would point the courts attention to the photographs of the signage in the evidence pack I would suggest that the driver would not have been able to read any such sign in the seconds taken to enter the car park and that their attention would have been taken up with negotiating the safe entry to the site and not reading terms and conditions.
    I was thinking about adding this

    v 1) The Claimant is asked to prove by way of contracts a definitive link between the landowner and themselves to prove that they have the locus standii to pursue such matters. The Defendant wishes to see an un-redacted contemporaneous copy of the contract between the Claimant and the landowner, not just another agent or retailer or other non-landholder. It must be clear that the landowner has authorised the necessary rights to the Claimant as required in the British Parking Association!!!8217;s code of practice, Part 7 Written Authorisation of the Landowner.

    2) If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken."


    Obviously I believe Etc Etc to the best of my knowledge Etc at the end
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
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    Wow, those photos of the KFC area are blinking brilliant evidence!

    And the aerial map photo you showed before, that is good too. Use them all.

    She will also need to adduce as evidence now, the BPA CoP section on 'grace periods'

    ... and the POFA Schedule 4 on 'one PCN/one period of parking', even though in fact the POFA is statute and shouldn't need to be produced, it will assist the court and help her (well you, as her lay rep with her) to show her case. And even though the POFA doesn't actually apply to drivers, only keepers, I would still use the point about the 'single period of parking' as being the 'will of Parliament' when drafting the only legislation about parking on private land.

    And as long as that WS is numbered, that sounds fine to me, it really is about writing our your defence in the first person, and that's what she's done.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    Adduce as evidence means doing what post 2 tells you in the newbies, and ensuring your WS references any exhibits you wish to introduce. E.g. INITIALS/001 - an excerpt of the BPA CoP concerning grace periods.
  • edited 15 July 2018 at 10:55PM
    rizla01rizla01 Forumite
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    edited 15 July 2018 at 10:55PM
    So would anyone like to cast an eye over the end product?
    I did post an earlier version but have now amended it.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
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