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Electric cars

edited 30 November -1 at 1:00AM in Motoring
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  • edited 10 July 2018 at 8:50AM
    HerzlosHerzlos Forumite
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    edited 10 July 2018 at 8:50AM
    That's why it's the average. And with EVs doing 150 miles now there's more and more trips which are fine to do.
    For those lot trips, how much of your total driving do they make up?
    Would you be happy stopping for 30 mins instead of 15 at a service/petrol station, if you were only paying 4p/mile?

    I live pretty rural but almost all of my journeys are under 100 miles round trip.

    Some people need ranges not yet available from EV. But not many.
    AdrianC wrote: »
    Let me turn that round - what percentage of car-owning households can honestly say they never do that, and can foresee no circumstances they'll ever need to do it?
    You made the claim, so it seems fair that you back it up. I also said regularly rather than ever.

    Going by anecdote; I don't know anyone except sales people and tradesmen that do long enough trips to need recharged whilst out. That seems to be the norm.

    The irony is that for the huge milers, EVsmake even more sense because of the fuel cost savings.
    I still maintain having to stop for a coffee break very 3 hours or so shouldn't adversely affect all but the most iron bladdered. Even trade and sales guys will be able to use that time to do paperwork whilst saving a huge chunk on their fuel costs.

    For everyone else; there's rental ICE cars. I'll probably ditch my ICE when I can afford an EV which can tow.


    Sure, but it's still a very long way from any kind of guarantee of availability. Even where there is provision, it's a token single charger or handful within many, many more bays.


    I repeat my experiences over the last couple of years - multiple 350-mile day returns to my elderly, ill father in Sheffield.
    The HA flats he lived in had - and still have - no charging provision.
    The care home he moved to - no charging provision.
    Northern General Hospital (1,100 beds) - no charging provision. They actively discourage any and all on-site parking, and it is a nightmare just to find any space there.
    According to zapmap, the nearest public charging provision is the massive Meadowhall shopping centre and Ikea, a hotel or two, and a selection of new car dealerships. None, AIU the map, are reported as having more than two charging points - in Meadowhall's case out of TWELVE THOUSAND spaces... And then you've got to fanny about with buses...

    My nearest city, Hereford, has three (total, single) charging points in public car parks, two in supermarket car parks, and one at a dealership, then further out there are a total of two in the main industrial estate, one at another dealership on the opposite edge. As you get out past the suburbs, there's another at a dealership and one at a hospice.


    And that's assuming they all work and aren't already in use.


    So is zapmap hopelessly outdated, or is destination charging still the rare exception?

    Oh I don't doubt there are places where fast charging isn't possible and you'll need to fall back on the granny charger, but that's a symptom of lack of uptake. I'm sure there was a real lack of petrol stations putting off early car drivers.

    But even my tiny town has I think 6. 4 at the train station and 2 in the library. I can't remember going to a multi story cat park that doesn't have them. Hospitals do seem to be behind the curve though.
  • AdrianCAdrianC Forumite
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    Herzlos wrote: »
    For everyone else; there's rental ICE cars.
    Well, quite. And that's ball-ache.

    Oh I don't doubt there are places where fast charging isn't possible and you'll need to fall back on the granny charger
    When I say "no destination charging", I'm including 13A socket.


    But even if one's available... A ~175 mile run (half of that 350 round trip) at ~5 miles/kWh is going to need about 12-18hrs of charge from a 13A socket.

    I can't remember going to a multi story cat park that doesn't have them.
    What proportion of spaces? One or two in an entire car park. It's tokenism.
  • NigeWickNigeWick Forumite
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    jeepjunkie wrote: »
    Can't say I've seen any new charger installs over the last year or so...
    Have a look at the map to see where there are public chargers:- https://www.zap-map.com

    Then there are starting to be systems for people like me who will let other EV drivers charge at their homes for the cost of the electricity. Companies are also starting to install them so that workers can charge during their shift. Then there are shops & supermarkets installing them to0, although that last comes under public charge points.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • edited 10 July 2018 at 11:20AM
    HerzlosHerzlos Forumite
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    edited 10 July 2018 at 11:20AM
    AdrianC wrote: »
    Well, quite. And that's ball-ache.

    It's harder than having it o your driveway, sure, but it's pretty slick these days.

    But even if one's available... A ~175 mile run (half of that 350 round trip) at ~5 miles/kWh is going to need about 12-18hrs of charge from a 13A socket.


    I'd be surprised if you were nowhere near a 13A socket or somewhere to charge, but I'm sure you'd be able to find an outlier if you tried hard enough - is it representative?

    But even so, you'd only need enough charge to get you to a faster charger rather than the whole trip.

    What proportion of spaces? One or two in an entire car park. It's tokenism.
    What proportion of EVs are parking in the car park? You seem to be implying that we need to support 100% of cars being EV before it becomes viable. Spaces will come with car uptake, and we're still very early on in terms of them being mainstream. Once every other car is EV, every other space will support charging in some capacity.
  • StageshootStageshoot Forumite
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    350 mile round trip working day from home to the depths of North Wales today.

    160 Miles to Kimmel Services on the A55 near Llandudno. 40 mins having an early lunch and catching up on emails and voicemails while on the rapid charger. Off around North Wales All jobs done.. home by 5pm with 10% left in battery car on charge overnight from Midnight to 7am (Eco7 Cheap Rate). Got up for work this morning 200 miles range and off we go again.

    Sorry the "There is Nowhere TO Charge Out These" Or "I cant afford the time to stop to charge" as worthless excuses.

    If you cant charge at home overnight and do a lot of miles its a PITA at the moment, and I would not recommend an EV... But No Charging while out and about is a smokescreen there is plenty.
    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
  • almillaralmillar Forumite
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    Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?

    I haven't. Isn't the average annual mileage in the UK 12,000 miles? An EV can manage that without too much charging, and there may or may not be many big journeys in there. Regardless, there are so many people at or below that annual mileage, who an EV would suit. AdrianC and others do stellar mileages, EVs may not be suitable for them at the moment, but they must realise that they are, literally, exceptional.
    fall back on the granny charger

    I went 2 years with a Zoe which doesn't come with a 3 pin 'granny' charger, and the one that came with my Soul sits in the garage. A cup of coffee at a rapid is often less hassle.
  • HerzlosHerzlos Forumite
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    Average mileage is closer to 8,000 miles now (7,900 in 2015).



    Assuming people only ever drive to work, and work 260 days a year, that's a 15 mile each way commute. Factor in non-work travel and it's probably under 15 miles round trip.


    So I reckon that about half the population could easily get an electric car and only charge it once a week. Of course, for those people it's not economically viable yet because they are paying so little in fuel.
  • edited 10 July 2018 at 9:15PM
    zeupaterzeupater Forumite
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    edited 10 July 2018 at 9:15PM
    Stageshoot wrote: »
    350 mile round trip working day from home to the depths of North Wales today.

    160 Miles to Kimmel Services on the A55 near Llandudno. 40 mins having an early lunch and catching up on emails and voicemails while on the rapid charger. Off around North Wales All jobs done.. home by 5pm with 10% left in battery car on charge overnight from Midnight to 7am (Eco7 Cheap Rate). Got up for work this morning 200 miles range and off we go again.

    Sorry the "There is Nowhere TO Charge Out These" Or "I cant afford the time to stop to charge" as worthless excuses.

    If you cant charge at home overnight and do a lot of miles its a PITA at the moment, and I would not recommend an EV... But No Charging while out and about is a smokescreen there is plenty.
    Hi

    I think that just about sums it up ... the use of a 'smoke & mirrors' argumentative approach is a commonly employed strategy amongst those who oppose change of almost any kind ...

    Okay, to be fair, there is a valid argument to be made that the capabilities of EVs currently don't serve everyone's requirements all of the time, but the sensible approach is to test the benefits against the problems to see where the balance lies and where issues exist investigate whether any compromise or change in practice is possible or necessary.

    For the vast majority of people making the vast majority of journeys & covering the vast majority of mileage, the arguments employed against EVs either don't apply or occur at a frequency which is relatively low, therefore totally acceptable to most, however, those opposed to EVs still oppose on the ground that they represent the 'majority' using anecdote, spurious claims & little in the way of supporting evidence which would stand-up to any more than a basic logical appraisal ...

    This obviously leads to posing the question as to why ...

    - Ideology? ... Well that really doesn't fit this situation well, it's not as if the plan would be to move to a less environmentally friendly vehicle or building a completely new industry, it's effectively a unit-for-unit, like-for-like change on environmental grounds.

    - Supporting corporations or corporate positions? ... Says it all in a nutshell, there's obviously plenty of big-business lobbying and populace 'thought-shaping' employed by various interested sectors, so we would be extremely naive to not expect this to happen on a popular forum such as this one ...

    - Argument for argument sake? ... We've all seen it before, it's mainly referred to as 'trolling' when conducted on forums, so on such a subject as EVs we should surely expect it to happen ...

    - Resistance to change? ... Yes, there are people who don't like change of any kind, however, it's appropriate to note that it's pretty normal for those most vocal in opposition to become relatively early adopters once their initial 'fears' have subsided ...

    Whatever the reason for vocal opposition, it's abundantly clear that it's an argument that cannot be won, it's not as if there's going to be a complete U-turn with 'someone' deciding to block an important path to lower emissions!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • StageshootStageshoot Forumite
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    Herzlos wrote: »
    Average mileage is closer to 8,000 miles now (7,900 in 2015).



    Assuming people only ever drive to work, and work 260 days a year, that's a 15 mile each way commute. Factor in non-work travel and it's probably under 15 miles round trip.


    So I reckon that about half the population could easily get an electric car and only charge it once a week. Of course, for those people it's not economically viable yet because they are paying so little in fuel.

    Exactly the target market should be the 30k+ Road warriors, for every one converted to EV that is the same as converting 4 or 5 average mileage motorists.

    These high mileage motorists (Like me @ 50k + a year) are the ones that can benefit most from the lower costs to run and at the same time have the most environmental impact.

    The quicker this sector can be moved to EV the quicker a decent supply of cheaper second hand EVs will appear in the sales channels.
    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
  • zeupaterzeupater Forumite
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    Herzlos wrote: »
    Average mileage is closer to 8,000 miles now (7,900 in 2015).

    Assuming people only ever drive to work, and work 260 days a year, that's a 15 mile each way commute. Factor in non-work travel and it's probably under 15 miles round trip.

    So I reckon that about half the population could easily get an electric car and only charge it once a week. Of course, for those people it's not economically viable yet because they are paying so little in fuel.
    Hi

    Exactly ... and that's what I tried to convey some time ago (In this Post) ...

    High mileage is normally associated with long distances and it's long distances that are the basis of the majority of anti-EV argument ....however, vehicles travelling long distances between stops are inherently doing so more efficiently than those low mileage vehicles performing daily urban commutes ....

    In fuel burned terms, more is logically consumed in vehicles travelling less than average mileage and those doing so in urban environments are creating far more concentrated emissions, just where population density ensures that it's highly detrimental to heath ...

    There's a reason for the move to EVs, it's emissions and their collective impact on ecological, environmental & health grounds ... so isn't it far more logical to concentrate on where benefits can be achieved soonest?

    So, towing caravans & trailers along with the specific requirements of high mileage commuters effectively become irrelevant as they don't apply to either the majority of users, miles travelled or emissions ... effectively those particularly vocal in anti-EV terms need to realise this and accept that although they may simply hold a minority view at the moment, it's likely that it'll become irrelevant in the not too distant future ... after-all, when petrol stations become rarer & rarer due to lack of demand, will it become more convenient to pre-plan journeys between them, or use the (by then) abundance of public charge points or ones at home or in the street outside?

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
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