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Providing information on Driver

Hi all,

my other half recently got a private PCN. Keen to challenge, of course, and I think there are a number of grounds to pursue, but the issue we have is that he was driving his mother's car and she is the one that has received the NTK (which was served within the correct time limit).

Advice is always to avoid admitting who the driver is but in practice it is going to be difficult to run the appeal in her name - she is the one at risk of hassle etc and may well be a bit nervous and, ultimately, it isn't her ticket. Should she not be Ok with doing so (and that might not be the case, but let's just assume for the purposes of this question!) then I'm trying to understand the impact of admitting my other half was the driver and his then continuing on to appeal the charge on his own behalf.

Sch 4 of POFA sets out the requirements of the NTD and NTK and envisions that you either have a NTD placed on the car, followed up by a NTK if the charge hasn't been paid, or where ANPR or camera equipment is used, just an NTK in the post. POFA requires the NTK must include a request for details of the driver if not the keeper and that the NTK is passed on to the driver if so.

Whilst I can see that some ground can be gained by refusing to admit who was driving, is the concern over admitting who was actually driving that the NTK cannot be challenged on technical grounds by the driver as indirect recipient (e.g. that it doesn't contain the correct information etc) or is there something that I am missing here? I find it hard to believe that such a challenge would not be possible - the requirement to pass along the NTK to the driver and the lack of a requirement for the PPC to send a follow-up NTD if a keeper does disclose who was driving seems to support this and, as a lawyer, I would find that reading of POFA very odd due to the serious loophole it would lead to. Equally, challenges in terms of signage etc would not seem to be affected either. Or is the concern something else that I haven't picked up on in what is so far more limited research? Just keen to know from those with more experience of appealing these things what the detriment might be so as to work out how much it is potentially worth putting his mother out!

Much appreciated!
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Replies

  • The_Slithy_ToveThe_Slithy_Tove Forumite
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    If the PPC knows who the driver was, then they know the party who allegedly entered into a contract with them, and can pursue that person (though see below).

    If the don't know who the driver was, then they can't pursue them. Prior to POFA, that stuffed them, as they could not take action through the courts, as they could not be sure who to go after.

    POFA allows them to go after the Keeper if they don't know who the driver was, so they now have someone to take to court if necessary. However, there are a few hurdles they must jump in order to do this:
    • The incident must have happened in England or Wales, as POFA does not apply to Scotland or Northern Ireland
    • The Keeper must also be in England or Wales, as they can't take a resident of Scotland to court in England without a massive amount of legal footwork which would be too expensive/difficult for them
    • ALL the requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA must be met, particularly the serving of the correct notices (Sec 7-9) with exactly the right information in them. This is the bit most PPCs don't get right most of the time, thus preventing them from holding the keeper liable.

    By providing the name and address of the driver, they will now know who to chase. HOWEVER, this is just one small step for them. In a court, they would still have to demonstrate that they are owed the amount they claim. Again, so many PPCs are not capable of getting the signage, contracts, notices, even company name correct, that they have very little case, and can be beaten in court or even on appeal (to POPLA, though IPC will always side with the PPC).

    What is often recommended is that you still refuse to name the driver, but appeal as the Keeper. That is your other half was temporarily the Keeper of the car (not the Registered Keeper - POFA is clear it is not the Registered Keeper, but the Keeper who can be held responsible). That way, he gets all the junk mail, but they still need to conform to POFA in order to pursue him.

    Clear?
  • beamerguybeamerguy Forumite
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    If the PPC knows who the driver was, then they know the party who allegedly entered into a contract with them, and can pursue that person (though see below).

    If the don't know who the driver was, then they can't pursue them. Prior to POFA, that stuffed them, as they could not take action through the courts, as they could not be sure who to go after.

    POFA allows them to go after the Keeper if they don't know who the driver was, so they now have someone to take to court if necessary. However, there are a few hurdles they must jump in order to do this:
    • The incident must have happened in England or Wales, as POFA does not apply to Scotland or Northern Ireland
    • The Keeper must also be in England or Wales, as they can't take a resident of Scotland to court in England without a massive amount of legal footwork which would be too expensive/difficult for them
    • ALL the requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA must be met, particularly the serving of the correct notices (Sec 7-9) with exactly the right information in them. This is the bit most PPCs don't get right most of the time, thus preventing them from holding the keeper liable.

    By providing the name and address of the driver, they will now know who to chase. HOWEVER, this is just one small step for them. In a court, they would still have to demonstrate that they are owed the amount they claim. Again, so many PPCs are not capable of getting the signage, contracts, notices, even company name correct, that they have very little case, and can be beaten in court or even on appeal (to POPLA, though IPC will always side with the PPC).

    What is often recommended is that you still refuse to name the driver, but appeal as the Keeper. That is your other half was temporarily the Keeper of the car (not the Registered Keeper - POFA is clear it is not the Registered Keeper, but the Keeper who can be held responsible). That way, he gets all the junk mail, but they still need to conform to POFA in order to pursue him.

    Clear?

    This is the best explanation in plain english I have seen here. Could this be made a sticky please, it would really help new people
  • bluetoffee1878bluetoffee1878 Forumite
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    Depending on the PPC, the majority of NTK's have some degree of non compliance to the requirements of POFA. Plus at the POPLA stage there are many other points that can be raised, signage, no authority etc.

    The aim of the game is to get a POPLA code after the initial appeal to the PPC.

    The 'new POPLA' website allows you very easily to appeal on behalf of somebody else (I've done this twice now) thereby preventing your mother in law being hassled as once an appeal is in then there should be no further enforcement.
  • The_DeepThe_Deep Forumite
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    If the driver is a lot more savvy than the RK, then it is to your advantage to name the driver.

    POFA is no big deal anyway, it has just closed off a route which allowed people to get off scot free without having to make any effort . The parts concerning contract, standing, loss, signage, planning permissions, etc., have not changed
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Thanks for input, guys.

    Since POFA does specifically define keeper and registered keeper separately and makes clear it is the "keeper" who may be held liable under POFA, (presumed unless otherwise corrected to be the RK), advice to name my other half but as the temporary keeper of the vehicle seems spot on. Can then make all the relevant POFA points as well as the non-POFA points re signage etc.

    Appreciated!
  • Please help I have received a letter through the post from these people I wasn't driving and the person who was went to shop door but they were closed so straight back to car..
    Less than a minute the letter states from 00:00:0000 to 12:57:00
    this was the time they arrived as it is on the photo and shows them going to the shop.

    what should I do please any advice
    Letitia :o
  • peter_the_piperpeter_the_piper Forumite
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    letitias wrote: »
    Please help I have received a letter through the post from these people I wasn't driving and the person who was went to shop door but they were closed so straight back to car..
    Less than a minute the letter states from 00:00:0000 to 12:57:00
    this was the time they arrived as it is on the photo and shows them going to the shop.

    what should I do please any advice

    Please start your own thread or it will get mixed up with the original and you won't know if the advice refers to you.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
  • towillstowills Forumite
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    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    Hi, I received a parking ticket for overnight parking on the residential ground at my cousins place in London by Parking Ticket Limited. My brother does not own a car and hence no parking permit. We were visiting him as he lost his dad the same evening we reached there. Car was not parked on any numbered slot and didn't block any residents parking. Checking BPA website i m not too clear if they are member or not. Chekcing the notice, I realised the mistake they have made is that the colour of my car is mentioned as "grey" whereas it of "golden beige" colour. What chances do i have to appeal? Woudl they consider that our visit was for bereavement and secondly the ticket shows as grey? Please help. thank you
  • edited 29 August 2016 at 2:46PM
    bod1467bod1467
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    edited 29 August 2016 at 2:46PM
    What is it with so many newbies (or new to this board anyway) who jump on threads yet don't even read the thread before posting? If they did then they's ALWAYS see posts advising them to start their own new threads ... yet very few actually do this!

    My view is ... if people do this then we should refrain from responding AT ALL. That way the advice may eventually sink in, if nobody ever responds to hijack posts. (And yes, I do see the irony in this reply of mine). ;)
  • beamerguybeamerguy Forumite
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    bod1467 wrote: »
    What is it with so many newbies (or new to this board anyway) who jump on threads yet don't even read the thread before posting? If they did then they's ALWAYS see posts advising them to start their own new threads ... yet very few actually do this!

    My view is ... if people do this then we should refrain from responding AT ALL. That way the advice may eventually sink in, if nobody ever responds to hijack posts. (And yes, I do see the irony in this reply of mine). ;)

    You are so right but it's the same as "terms and conditions", very few people read them anyway.

    All we can do is tell them to start a new thread and if they ignore that ... nothing more can be done.

    It is annoying but I do not think we should ignore these people as we do not want MSE bad mouthed
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